Considering LEDs? Here's my take on it (Halides VS LEDs)

[OneBigTurbo]

Yes diode...

The light gap u speak of is due to me not finishing the stand that holds the panel which then will open the light to fully cover the entire tank. If i would leave the light how it stands in the video the light panel will get full of saltwater which in then will destroy all the lights... More over i do also have other lights which include white (dailies), blue and purple. If you know how to properly put a light correctly together "Heat" woud not be a issue.
What I'm trying to get to is its all in the optic which magnifies ur light traveling out of the diodes. In return u won't need to buy a set up of 1,000 led's so on and so forth. I also have a 240g tank being that my tank is huge I wanted to share with u what i went throw and share my experience dealing with those smaller panels. When they go out ur down the whole $600 to replace them. But I'll leave it at that

[JohnnyAirtime]

....... But I'll leave it at that

Cool. Thanks.

....where's the 240 that you mention having, to show me and compare?? Apples to apples would be nice.

.... tell ya what, When your lights are 100% done. Show us the build, and what you accomplished. For now, understand that the performance of my LEDs, as well as cost and functionality far surpass what I'm after. I'm not sure why you mention $600 to replace them.... I have spare parts, $2 here... $10 there. Why would I need to "replace them"? (that's rhetorical, no need to answer).

I suggest you starting your own thread, and show everyone what you've built... or, are building. I've be the first to check it out!!

[specvjeff]

Let's keep the discussion to LEDs and reef tank lighting. If you are thinking about making personal comments about a user, please don't.


SanDiegoReefs.com Moderator
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[JohnnyAirtime]

Johnny what a well put together thread--lots of info. Nice job brotha!!

Thanks Vince... I've done LOTs of research, and like to share as much info as I can... when I can.

I don't usually preface my threads with my history in "lighting", but... I should have. I've been working with off-road lighting since 1988 or so, and since then been building H.I.D. systems for off-road motorcycles. LEDs have been on the market, and in the consumers eye for some time and are being placed on off-road machines all over the world. I've been adapting like everyone else... and in doing so, have learned a lot. A LOT of what LEDs will do, and won't do. How efficient they are, or aren't in certain aspects of our needs. And now... using them over aquariums is something growing by leaps and bounds. Of coarse, you still have the Halide users and rightfully so for some SPS or particular personal needs. However, with my background... and experience, I feel LED is the future and will get better each year. It's amazing how LEDs grow with technology, and how technology exceeds each previous year's growth. ... I look forward to 10yrs down the road!!!

[wrestle1952]

Johnny, thank you for sharing your work with LED's. I do think they are the wave of the future. I think for now they are still falling short especially with SPS corals. It has been reported a multitude of times that LED success with SPS is very much a mixed bag. Some have been somewhat successful others are selling their fixtures and returning to what they previously used. This is why I have not made the plunge yet. Companies like AI are rumored to introduce UV lenses in the future which should aid in SPS growth. For the corals you are keeping in the photos I do think LED's are appropriate. I still question the "savings" over time. LED's are still priced extremely high (at least those with decent results). It would take you several years to realize the savings in energy cost. We should not forget that LED's need replacement every 5 years. At the current cost and the rate your heater would also be going on and off savings may be a wash. I know I will make the plunge some day when the LED companies have worked out all the kinks in regards to light dispersion lenses, getting the "hidden ray" thing right (appropriate amounts of UV, infra red, and other waves of light not seen by the human eye). We may not think those things are necessary but they are found in abundance in natural sunlight. Say what you will whether they are necessary or not but their mere existance does play parts in coral and reef health. LED's are excellent for displaying coral color. They may be the most superior light currently used for that purpose especially when just the blue bulbs are turned on. The display tank at Aqua SD is a stunning example of that fact. If your goal is to make your coral colors look good then yes, blue led's are reef ready now. As far as SPS go, I think they will make corals survive but not thrive. I do believe they will in time but not right now. Again thank you for your work. The hobby needs pioneers like you.

[JohnnyAirtime]

Thanks for the input... Always nice to read others thoughts on the subject.

I'm going to note a couple things about your post (please read my response with an open mind as well);

......I think for now they are still falling short especially with SPS corals. It has been reported a multitude of times that LED success with SPS is very much a mixed bag. Some have been somewhat successful others are selling their fixtures and returning to what they previously used. ........... Companies like AI are rumored to introduce UV lenses in the future which should aid in SPS growth. .............. I still question the "savings" over time. LED's are still priced extremely high (at least those with decent results). It would take you several years to realize the savings in energy cost. We should not forget that LED's need replacement every 5 years. At the current cost and the rate your heater would also be going on and off savings may be a wash. ............ getting the "hidden ray" thing right (appropriate amounts of UV, infra red, and other waves of light not seen by the human eye). ................... If your goal is to make your coral colors look good then yes, blue led's are reef ready now. As far as SPS go, I think they will make corals survive but not thrive. I do believe they will in time but not right now. ............

The results, with LEDs and SPS are still not scientifically founded but rather a common finding among aquarists. And we all must understand, that NOT JUST lighting is a culprit for good and bad results/findings. All too often, the "control" in an experiment is not often strictly adhered to. It'd be a long drawn out process, and thus has never been done by any biologist studying lighting and it's effects on the coral reef. I don't know of ONE experiment, where the control is the same for testing of BOTH LED and Halide w/actinic supplement. I'd love to have more information on this (if you have some, start a new thread and please... share!!) ... however, I will agree that MOST artificial lighting cannot offer what our natural sun can. Hence the multitude of LEDs at specific wavelengths for the light fixtures I've been purchasing. NOT JUST for coral coloring... but, natural simulation of the sun and it's output.

Cost savings is definitely there already. For example; The heater on my tanks rarely turn on, due to the constant temp in my home and the pump heat... or other environmental additives to the equation. However, with Halides (or something equivalent in lumen/par output) the Chiller will definitely run more. With LEDs, quite the opposite. As well, the current draw from LEDs is amazingly low in comparison again, to a Halide or same/same scenario of lumen/par output. If I run my LEDs 12hrs a day, for a year... that's 4,380hrs. LEDs will last 50,000hrs or more... or 11years at the 12hr/day scenario. I can live with that. The savings over 11yrs, is instrumental as well as the ability to not have environmental waste (throwing out fluorescent or halide bulbs).

I'm not sure I'm on base with the "hidden" rays you speak of... UV and IR. I understand your point, but again... I'd love to see where this has been compared in a test of some scientific stature. I know injected Ozone (via ozonator) for example, plays part in aiding some of the UV and other effects/benefits the sun would normally have on natural seawater. But never have I seen too much of a supplemental light providing direct UV (let alone IR - which I don't think is beneficial whatsoever to coral) that's deemed safe for home use. Most LEDs, Halides, or other lighting that provides UV radiation has a filter on the lens to remove any UV before exposed to the consumer. To help explain where IR is on the spectrum (or to understand real world comparisons) and to use as a lighting reference... this might be a good read; http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater...eef-light.aspx

... just know, I'm not an expert by any means. Nor do I claim to be one. BUT... I am a skeptic, and this being even for LEDs. The skeptisicm keeps me aware and wary at the same time. Never will I assume when it comes to these kinds of things, that can be correctly researched.

In conclusion, with many findings there are lots of people using LEDs over SPS dominated tanks with GREAT success. I think once you can answer the question; "What is too little, what is too much LED for MY tank?" ... you'll have your answer.

All we are trying to do is; Simulate natural sunlight to a point that our corals thrive. Not too much, not too little. Tough to do with a tank full of corals from different parts of the world, and often found at different depths. Yet, my LEDs I've been using seem to be doing a great job of it. I've not "seen" any complaints in any of the corals I keep (except xenia and anthellia, which thrive in my sump and die in my display - same water!)

[wrestle1952]

Points well taken. Water quality definitely has something to do with growth, coloration, etc. I know you've said lot's of people have success with LED's on SPS tanks. The four that I have seen all have the same thing. Great color much slower growth rate if any at all. That is only four. I have seen pictures of LED lit SPS tanks but I question the longevity of time they have illuminated their tank. I bpught some coral from a guy that had an Ecoray 60 over a 20 gallon tank with strictly SPS. Great colors no MINIMAL growth after 18 months. Some of the SPS had not completely covered their plugs, this was after 18 months. He then replaced the Ecoray with T5's and began experiencing accelerated growth. That is the one tank with substantiated proof of what I am saying. The other three were similar but the owners are deciding to ride it out after spending a small fortune. Once again I salute your work and I will switch in the future. I just need to see a tank after 2 years of LED illumination with time lapse photos. I will then look at their lighting, price, and decide if it is right for me.

[JohnnyAirtime]

Points well taken.............. I just need to see a tank after 2 years of LED illumination with time lapse photos. I will then look at their lighting, price, and decide if it is right for me.

I hear ya...! And it's good your skeptical too.
There's always going to be "stories" of growth or lack of. Always. No matter what brand, or type of lighting over a tank.

In the real world; I sometimes notice my tank does great almost month to month. Literally, there's two sinularia frags that started off at about 3" tall. One today, is 5" tall and bushier (just started showing growth the past few months). The other, is about 15x15" and thriving. All in a matter of 8 months) Why?? Who knows, they are both under the same lights at about the same place in the tank. It could be a billion things as to why one is doing so much better then the other... I know what isn't the problem, LIGHTING.

My point is, there's just too many variables in our tanks (even your buddies swap to T5s) to warrant lighting as the sole benefit. I know it's easy to say how the T5s brought on the growth... and that's probably what I'd want to point the solution too as well. BUT, I often know there's TONS more to it... and me personally, I'll never say my LEDs promoted more growth (even with my softies, LPS, and some SPS), as I can't honestly say that. It'd just be assuming.

Even a time lapse over 2yrs... isn't going to be the tell all. It needs to be a strictly controlled experiment, where all parameters are measured. From water, to livestock, to environment, to daily regimen, feeding, food testing, parasite monitoring...etc.etc. (ugh... my head is spinning thinking about how many variables could be considered).... it's just overwhelming what it'd take to be an accurate scenario.

Again, I'm just playing devils advocate on these topics... I challenge most internet findings, and go for my own facts as much as possible. It sure helps .... but also, at times can be too much information to digest. I miss reading the books of Sprung, Moe...etc Always a good read. I might have to dust'em off again and brush up. Too bad LEDs weren't around 20yrs ago for them to write about then (in their prime writing era).

...thanks for the support on my research, and such. It's just a passion, but nice to know it doesn't go unnoticed.

If your ever in my neighborhood... PM, I'd be happy to show ya my setup and enjoy a cold one.

[JohnnyAirtime]

It's again time to check PAR above my tank...

Am now using a Pendant Style LED over my tank, and will be checking par in direct comparison to past measurements using 112W and 120W panels.

From what I've seen already, and each pendant being 120W... I'm getting better PAR (PPF) measurements directly below and in the pendants direct view, but the PAR is slowly sluffing off out to the extreme edges of the tank. More so then the panel LEDs without optics, but about the same with those panel LEDs that had lens optics. ...........I'll have a comparison photo later this week (showing new PAR measurements).