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    Thread: Fluidized bed filter for F/W?

    1. #16
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      The only draw back on the tube filter is that your water may not be as crystal clear as you would expect with a canister filter. I would suggest using filter socks for your sump over flow when it hits the sump. It will help a lot with mechanical filtration. You can get some more help cleaning the water with a big sponge on the intake of your return pump. Just make you change them regularly so they don't fill up (especially with the return pump - don't want to starve the pump).

      For bio media, any of the stuff will work, like the Eheim stuff, BRS stuff, aquaclear bio pellets, etc. Since you are stuffing this stuff inside a tube filter, you need to make sure a) it doesn't pack and b) it promotes random flow through the filter. The best stuff for that (IMO) is the rod/cylinder shaped stuff. I prefer tri-pelitized carbon from Hiatt -tons of surface area for bacteria to grow and carbon source to help establish the bacteria. I think I got a pound of it somewhere if you are interested.

      The big question is how much? We'll, think about how many cubic inches you would expect to need in a canister filter, and it will be about the same. The BRS bio media and tri-pelitized carbon have a fair amount more surface area than the stock canister filter stuff, so you can get by with even less space. Then figure out what diameter tube you want to use. If use 3" diameter pipe, then 11" of pipe (1 foot less 1" for filter floss) would give you roughly 78 square inches of bio media, which is a lot (area of cylinder = PI * Radius squared * length = 3.14*1.5*1.5*11 = 77.71square inches). Use 2" diameter, and it is 34.5 square inches. The benefit of smaller diameters is it minimizes the potential for flow issues like dead spots and channeling through the bio media, and you usually use a smaller pump. But you will be limited by the size of your sump.

      Make sure you plan something that helps keep the tube and pump off the floor and sides of the sump or you can get a fair amount of noise. I used nylon rope to suspend it from the top of the stand. It is still fully submersed, but it is not touching anything but water.

      Bio balls seems to generate nitrates quicker than just about anything else. I always thought it was the whole wet/dry thing. On the flip side, it is ripping any ammonia and nitrites out of your water faster than most. So it is a double edged sword. IME, cichlids can tolerate some pretty crummy water conditions, so you have a lot of flexibility. You are much better off getting the ammonia and nitrites out of the water as quickly as you can (i.e. a very efficient biofiltration set up, whichever way you go) and dealing with nitrates as they occur. The good news with African cichlids is that San Diego tap water runs Ph in the low 8s (at least it has for me), and they generally like higher Ph. So water changes are a breeze, as long as you get the temp right when doing fill ups (tons of articles out there about the problems with using water warmed by your hot water heater...better to use separate container, fill up, hit it with dechlorinator/heater/small power head, and then pump into system).

      If you do go tube filter, PM me and I'll give you some suggestions on how to make it. For instance - put a screen over eggcrate at the end of the tube to keep the media from pouring out.

    2. #17
      Sailor Seth is offline Registered User
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      That's pretty much what I've heard about bio balls so maybe that's what I wanna go with. I'm already planning on doing 50% water changes per week so that should take care of the nitrates. Maybe I'll go with my original plan & do a trickle filter in the 20gal sump. I've heard of people having problems with them but good sized regular water changes should fix that. My wife does a 10% to 15% water change on our 36 gallon reef tank every week, so I'm figuring I could use the R/O waste water for my changes. It would still have around 20 TDS in it so maybe some declorinater & a heater & a powerhead in a container before the change would make for one clean cichlid tank. Do you think using R/O waste water would be a bad idea for f/w?

    3. #18
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      20 TDS actually may not be enough for cichlids (assuming you are shooting for 8.3-8.4 ph for the water). Typically (and highly simplified), more TDS = higher alkalinity & higher ph = water has greater ability to resist changes in Ph and establishes Ph at higher level.

      I would just use tap water, conditioned (or not - read below) and heated, and see how it goes. My guess (based upon my experiences with San Diego tap water) is that it will be about perfect.

      With the bio balls, make sure you let the trickle filter work and don't totally submerge the balls. The bottom few is fine, but let the wet/dry thing work. A downside will be evaporation, so if you have any way to seal off the trickle filter (good fitting top), I would do it. It will help trap a lot of moisture. Make sure that your top off water is pretty low in TDS, or your tank alkalinity/Ph might start creeping up higher than you want to.

      I think that you might find 50% water changes too aggressive. I would start with about 20% per week, and see how it goes. If you find that you do need to switch out half the water per week (which I seriously doubt based upon my past experience with super heavy FW bio load tanks), split it up into 2 or 3 water changes. Switching out that much water gives you very little buffer to balance out water issues, like fill water with too much/too little alk/Ph, or too hot/cold.

      Also, you can usually forgo using water conditioners if you rig your RO/DI filter with a valve just before it goes into the RO membrane. This allows you to filter the water up to the membrane. Assuming you have chlorine/chloramine blocks in your first few stages before the membrane, you should be good to go.

    4. #19
      Sailor Seth is offline Registered User
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      Alright then! That all sounds pretty good. I am definitely finalizing my filtration plan. Now what if I decided to go with a fowlr instead of cichlids? Would 15 to 20 TDS be too much for a fowlr? I would really like to use the R/O waste water for my 40gal if possible.

    5. #20
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Seth View Post
      Alright then! That all sounds pretty good. I am definitely finalizing my filtration plan. Now what if I decided to go with a fowlr instead of cichlids? Would 15 to 20 TDS be too much for a fowlr? I would really like to use the R/O waste water for my 40gal if possible.
      Personally, I would want 0 TDS for top off water for SW, even FOWLR, to minimize algae growth.

    6. #21
      offroad537 is offline Registered User
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      Theres no reason why you need a sump just wast of money and space all you Need is a good filter like a 305 or 405. And if you use live plants even better

    7. #22
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      Quote Originally Posted by offroad537 View Post
      Theres no reason why you need a sump just wast of money and space all you Need is a good filter like a 305 or 405. And if you use live plants even better
      Respectfully disagree. Many benefits...hidden heaters, co2 diffusers, flexibility, ease of maintenance. Canister filters do a great job with mechanical filtration, but only so-so with biological filtration. And they are notoriously a PITA to deal with (dropped siphons, leaking onto floors). A wet/dry, even a FBF or tube filter, will be much better at biological filtration.

      I can only talk from my experiences, but those are my experiences.

      Changing 2 filter socks on my FW sump = 1 minute per week. Cleaning out sponges on canister, getting siphon back up and rolling, hoping to avoid any flooding = 10+ minutes per week. New Fluval 405 = $250. 20g sump + Q1 4000 + plumbing + 2 filter socks = $20 + $80 + $20 + $10 = $130, nearly half the price.

      He can't use plants two big cichlids, unless he goes floating plants.

    8. #23
      Mario is offline Member
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      i have a fluidized sand filter thats three feet tall i built it holds about a 2lbs of sand i like it because I dont lose any co2 as a hob filter.

    9. #24
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      wow, that is big. how big of a pump are you using?

    10. #25
      Mario is offline Member
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      a rio 1400

    11. #26
      Mario is offline Member
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      ill add pic tonight of the one i built!

    12. #27
      Mario is offline Member
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      http://mediamail.boostmobile.com/sha...PB7zYXuzXo7888

      pic of the fluidized sand bed filter

    13. #28
      SoCalBoo is offline Registered User
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      Nice. Any problem with nitrates climbing too fast?

    14. #29
      Mario is offline Member
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      none and it seems to help clarify the water faster at stirring up the tank

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