Fluidized bed filter for F/W?

[Sailor Seth]

I have an empty 40gal & an empty 20gal sitting in the closet. After my next deployment I'm planning on doing a low maintenance 40gal green terror cichlid tank. I have 2 questions for you guys. Do you think it is worth while to build a sump out of the 20gal since I'm going for low maintenance and I'm only going to put one green terror in it? And I have heard good things about how fluidized bed filters are awesome bio filters. Should I use one on my 40gal? I know big cichlids are big waste producers so I figured a good bio filter is a good start. Tell me what you guys think. Any advice and or experiences with similar ideas will be much appreciated.

[offroad537]

you dont need a sump for fresh water. I have a 40 gallon planted tank and dont use any sumps. i only have a 405 to clean the water. its not like a salt water tank.

[Sailor Seth]

Well yeah, I know its not like saltwater. I was just wondering if anyone here uses a sump for their cichlid tanks is all. I have had plenty of different tanks & completely different setups, I just wanted to see if anyone else has tried this setup for cichlids. I was more interested in the fbf opinions than anything. I don't know much about them. Does anyone have experience with them?

[Dan Knowlton]

Take a look here - lots of opinions

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...use-sumps.html

Dan K.

[drainbamage]

fluidized beds are great ammonia/nitrite filters, but they provide highly aerobic conditions, which are toxic for the bacteria that devours nitrate's and converts to nitrogen.

So yes, a fluidized filter is nice, but not a complete filter for what you're looking to do. I'd highly recommend using one as they help when those big suckers get fed, but they won't replace the water changes you'll need to be doing, especially with 'Terrors in a 40. Turning the sump into a plant filter might help you out, but doubtful you'll have sufficient plant growth to consume all the 'trates you'll be generating.

[AquaticLifeTropicals]

fluidized beds are great ammonia/nitrite filters, but they provide highly aerobic conditions, which are toxic for the bacteria that devours nitrate's and converts to nitrogen.

So yes, a fluidized filter is nice, but not a complete filter for what you're looking to do. I'd highly recommend using one as they help when those big suckers get fed, but they won't replace the water changes you'll need to be doing, especially with 'Terrors in a 40.

Agreed.

Turning the sump into a plant filter might help you out, but doubtful you'll have sufficient plant growth to consume all the 'trates you'll be generating.

Interestingly enough, he might just be able to cut it with the right plants. Think Anacharis and Java Moss. Mostly Anacharis of course.

You could also attempt to build a refugium into the sump. This would include a planted freshwater DSB. You would need blackworms and many other creatures in there. However, the same principles would apply. If you have the time and some extra cash, I would LOVE to see what you can accomplish with this idea.

[drainbamage]

I agree SDrock- I've always wanted to see what freshwater people could do if they put some of the energy/cash into the tank that the SW crowd does (excepting planted tanks, those have pleanty going on!) But doing a fuge that's comparable to a macro algae fuge is something I've always wanted to try out, except I've never wanted to set up a FW tank to try it out on

I'd really be curious what sort of 'trate reduction could be accomplished, not to mention how often the plants would need to be thinned out cause of growth.

[AquaticLifeTropicals]

It's a very interesting idea indeed. I'm glad that I'm not the only one on this board that would love to see this in action.

[drainbamage]

It's a very interesting idea indeed. I'm glad that I'm not the only one on this board that would love to see this in action.

you're the one with the store- make it happen- please that east county crowd loves South American cichlids, so if you perfected a "no water change" big cichlid system, you should be able to sell it

[Sailor Seth]

Thank you so much for all of your opinions. That link was extremely helpful too. It's seeming like I'll probably stay away from an fbf cuz I don't think I'll need one. As far as the sump goes, I'm thinking I want one for ease of cleaning & water changes plus I'd like to hide all my equipment. I also have 2 extra canister filters not in use. They are a Rena Filstar XP2 & XP3. On top of the canisters, I also have an extra in-tank UV sterilizer not in use. I guess I'm wondering if the sump is worth it for the purposes that I want one for, or should I just go with a canister filter & put the equipment in the tank? Also, do you guys think I should use the UV sterilizer? I'm just concerned because I've had Oscars before & they tore up anything they could get to. What are your thoughts guys & gals?

[Sailor Seth]

I guess I'm also wondering if a basic trickle filter built into the 20gal sump would be a good thing for this setup?

[SoCalBoo]

I run a 40g sump on a 120g freshwater planted tank. It is nice to have heaters hidden, and to run filter socks to help clean the water. For true water polishing, nothing beats a good canister filter, IMO.

I ran a fluidized bed filter on a cichlid tank. They are very efficient at converting ammonia->nitrite->nitrate. Probably the most efficient you'll see for size and wattage consumption (I ran mine off a MJ600). But drainbramage is right - they aren't gonna help with nitrate removal, and actually might contribute to the problem because they are so efficient at generating nitrates.

The true enclosed FW system idea sounds really cool, but you'll burn a fair amount of energy on lighting for the sump and I would be concerned if it can be done with large waste producers (at least for the size sump you were talking about).

I think that you'll run into an issue with FBF if you don't put a filter on the intake. FBF's are a pain to clean when crud gets in there.

Cannister filters work well too, but they suffer from the same aerobic issues as the FBF. They are easier to clean than FBF, but can sometimes be a pain to re-establish with siphon. But you can't beat a canister filter for water polishing (which may or may not a be a realistic goal with big cichlids).

Another idea is to run filter media through a tube filter in the sump. Easy to DIY and cheap. Also easy to change filter pads out when they clog up.

[Sailor Seth]

Awesome advice! Thank you very much guys. All this information is very helpful & its swaying me towards just using the larger of my 2 canister filters. I still kinda have the want to keep equipment out of the tank & away from the future terrorizer that's gunna be in there. So keeping that in mind, do any of you think a good sized trickle filter built into the 20 gallon with filter mesh on top of bio-balls would be at least as good as using a canister? I would really like to keep any kinda equipment in a sump if possible. I know there's issues with trickles but I haven't worked with them first hand. I know canisters can be a pain some times so that's why I ask.... Oh btw, what's a tube filter?

[SoCalBoo]

Seth - a tube filter is a DIY ABS, acrylic or PVC tube that runs water through some type of mechanical filter and then into bio media and back out. It is typically run in a sump, or in line on a return pump. It has an advantage over a FBF and media reactor type filter in that you can put mechanical filtration in it easily (pretty hard to do with FBF or media reactor type filter, unless you do it as a sponge on intake).

It is easiest set up in sump where you can power it with a maxi-jet 400, 600 or 900, taking very little watts to power and adding little heat signature. About once a month (maybe more for a really dirty tank), you'll need to pull it out, take the top off, clean out/replace the mechanical filter (filter floss or poly fill for bed pillows work great), and do a quick (but not too thorough) rinse of the media. The media can be any of the bio media on the market, like the Eheim stuff, aquaclear stuff, bulk reef supply bio media, etc. I personally like the tri-pellitized carbon that comes from the Hiatt line.

If you are gonna run a sump, it makes more sense than a cannister filter. Much cheaper to make vs. buying even a used canister, takes much less power/watts to run it, don't need to worry about running intake/return tubes (and related issues with leakage), don't need to worry about re-establishing siphon when cleaning filter, and filter cleaning takes far less time. The only advantage I see is that canister filters do a bit better job with water polishing.

If you need more info on tube filters, pm me and I can walk you through it. You can build one for less than $20 plus $10 for used maxijet.

Bio balls and trickle filters have gone by the way side for SW because they generate nitrates so fast, among other issues. In FW, it is the same thing. But with a 'dirty' tank with large fish with copious amounts of waste, you are gonna clog the bio balls and have problems with that. What ever you use, you are gonna be cleaning it a fair amount. so what is easier to clean? I think that tube filter is the easiest, bio balls close second, and canister filter third. I put canister filter as third because you've got to turn it off, close the valves, pull out the media, rinse it, put it back in, replace mechanical filter, put it back in, seal it back up, flip valves open, turn it on, and hope you can easily re-establish siphon. I have used many different fluval and eheim canisters, and all but one had issues with getting siphon going. It is just a pain.

With a tube filter, I just pull off the pump, pull out the filter, walk it to sink, unscrew the lid, pull out the old filter floss, pour media into colander, rinse, put back into tube, put new filter floss in, screw lid back on, and re-attach pump. Takes about 5 minutes. I guess that with sponge on intake of FBF or media reactor type filter it would be about the same.

Hope it helps.

[Sailor Seth]

Sweet! Thanx SoCalBoo. To be honest, at this point I'm kinda leaning towards a tube filter run in a sump for ease of cleaning. A sump will also allow me to keep equipment from my little monster to be. What kinda bio media do you run in your tube filter? Since bio balls are a bad idea, what about the ceramic rings or another kinda commercially available media? Are they as bad of nitrate factories as bio balls? I think I'm gunna skip on using my canister filters.