"One-third of coral reef species face extinction"

[dj9264]

Yes, and I also call BS.

I'm not confused. Algae needs light and nutrients. The cooler the water the more nutrients. So, how does "algae always thrive in warmer conditions." You got some fuzzy math my friend.

Studies have shown that the warm water has caused the loss of lots and lots and lots of coral due to loss of their symbiotic algae. But, the acidification of the ocean causing any loss?

I threw you a softball, this is why it's "easier for algae to grow." It grows on the bleached coral heads on the reefs.


"Ohh ok, so you're a marine biologist that studies reefs for a living, thus giving you authority to state that lower PH is not effecting wild reefs?"

Well, yes. BS in BS, UC Irvine, Class of '85. MS Optics Berkeley '87.

and no, I'm not giving myself any authority at all; complete the opposite I have no idea what an increase in CO2 is doing to wild reefs and nor do you.

[SolRo]

Yes, and I also call BS.

I'm not confused. Algae needs light and nutrients. The cooler the water the more nutrients. So, how does "algae always thrive in warmer conditions." You got some fuzzy math my friend.

Don't apply your confused math to me.

Being cold doesn't make water neutrient rich, I don't get where you're getting this association, the only thing water inherently gains by being colder is the ability to hold more dissolved gas.

The reason the cold water off the califorina coast is rich with neutrients is due to an upwelling of neutrient rich deep sea currents (deep sea = no light, very cold, little neutrient uptake). Hell, we get algae blooms here whenever the water warms up too much.

Studies have shown that the warm water has caused the loss of lots and lots and lots of coral due to loss of their symbiotic algae. But, the acidification of the ocean causing any loss?

I threw you a softball, this is why it's "easier for algae to grow." It grows on the bleached coral heads on the reefs.

Fine, if you're too lazy to do even the smallest of google searches, so convinced you know better than everyone, here;

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1847

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0521105251.htm

go ahead, lower your tanks PH to 7.7, 7.8 or even 7.9, tell us how great your coral will still be doing

[dj9264]

I did the search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

Please read possible impacts. Yes, it could be bad. But, it is still uncertain.

I did not say ocean acidification is not happening. I'm saying we have yet to seen little to no effect.
Thank you for the more informative links than USA Today.

During upwelling, wind blows dense cold water up from the bottom. Where the nutrients from organics are! Not "deep sea = no light, very cold, little neutrient uptake" What does that even mean?


It's 5 a.m. and my pH is 7.82. Are you sure this is so bad too? My coral; well, let us not get personal. I can say my SPS is growing. I feed my Moorish Idol too much.

Dang! It's 7.81 Now, you got me worried.

[dj9264]

I'm absolutely convinced that I know less than everyone. And they don't know much.

As pH declines in the world's oceans, the effects on coral reefs could be more harmful than previously thought.

Scientists have already shown that coral growth may decrease as the ocean pH declines.

"These findings suggest that at lower pH, these reef-building algae could be much less competitive on future coral reefs"

The results of our study were visibly obvious and may provide a glimpse into the future.

it is possible that ocean acidification could hasten shifts away from dominance by stony corals and other reef-builders to fleshy algae as seen already on many reefs today.

The expected biological impact of ocean acidification remains still uncertain.

Thanks for all the proof.

Holding at 7.81 and here comes the sun with my (-) ions. We made it through another night.

[SolRo]

I did the search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

Please read possible impacts. Yes, it could be bad. But, it is still uncertain.

I did not say ocean acidification is not happening. I'm saying we have yet to seen little to no effect.

Don't use wikipedia as your main evidence of "uncertainty", and since this whole thread is about reefs and then your disbelief about reef health and acidification, it isn't relevant that free-floating oceanic calcium using algae may have not been effected, while all other signs point to REEFS being harmed by acidification.

During upwelling, wind blows dense cold water up from the bottom. Where the nutrients from organics are! Not "deep sea = no light, very cold, little neutrient uptake" What does that even mean?

Read past the first wikipedia paragraph at least. Californias coast is fed by deep sea upwelling.

here, a credible source
http://cordellbank.noaa.gov/environment/seasons.html

It's 5 a.m. and my pH is 7.82. Are you sure this is so bad too? My coral; well, let us not get personal. I can say my SPS is growing. I feed my Moorish Idol too much.

Dang! It's 7.81 Now, you got me worried.

Do you know the difference between night time PH drops in our aquariums and daytime PH?

Keep your PH at 7.8 during the day, for a month, see how well your coral does.

[SolRo]

I'm absolutely convinced that I know less than everyone. And they don't know much.

As pH declines in the world's oceans, the effects on coral reefs could be more harmful than previously thought.

Scientists have already shown that coral growth may decrease as the ocean pH declines.

"These findings suggest that at lower pH, these reef-building algae could be much less competitive on future coral reefs"

The results of our study were visibly obvious and may provide a glimpse into the future.

it is possible that ocean acidification could hasten shifts away from dominance by stony corals and other reef-builders to fleshy algae as seen already on many reefs today.

The expected biological impact of ocean acidification remains still uncertain.

Thanks for all the proof.

Holding at 7.81 and here comes the sun with my (-) ions. We made it through another night.

So your whole argument is now based on the scientific community not telling you exactly how bad the damage will be, in how many years, and the exact date and time a certain reef will die off?

Biology isn't physics, there's never any 100% certain thing in biology, but to ignore all the evidence and warning signs because a 95% chance isn't 100% is just ignorant.

[Som1else]

One law of nature is that if a species reproduces without limit, and has no predators to keep its numbers in check, it eventually uses up its resources and experiences a massive die-off.

Thats why we have terrorists!

[dj9264]

Man, I wasn't going to even used that point about free-floating oceanic calcium using algae since it is just a single species. But, surprise, surprise!

How can you use phytoplankton in your argument? Local algal blooms are a single warm water adapted species. They not because the water is warm but because; well I don't know why. But if you think you do I'd love to hear it. Our warm water events in California cause a loss of almost all algae and everything that feeds on them; the whole ecosystem breaks down on a large scale.

"Keep your PH at 7.8 during the day, for a month, see how well your coral does." NO!
The Oceans are not at 7.8. "They" are saying it MAY drop 0.3 to 7.8 someday. I agree; that would be bad.

Please see post #49. I'm using the links you provided as my "main evidence of uncertainty."

[dj9264]

"So your whole argument is now based on the scientific community not telling you exactly how bad the damage will be, in how many years, and the exact date and time a certain reef will die off?"

Yes! Show me a single dead polyp from low pH in the any sea anywhere.

[dj9264]

Have I ignored anything? I'm with you on global warming. The reefs dead from warm water bleaching long before high CO2 touches them. But, lets be clear on the science.

[SolRo]

Man, I wasn't going to even used that point about free-floating oceanic calcium using algae since it is just a single species. But, surprise, surprise!

Do you even read the wikipedia citations, or just read whatever the one guy typing it says and take it as fact? The ONLY reason given for the "uncertainty" you like to harp on IS the oceanic algae that's doing better....everything else is doing worse, again, according to the very wiki article you cite.

Thorougly read your own citations before making wild guesses.

How can you use phytoplankton in your argument? Local algal blooms are a single warm water adapted species. They not because the water is warm but because; well I don't know why. But if you think you do I'd love to hear it. Our warm water events in California cause a loss of almost all algae and everything that feeds on them; the whole ecosystem breaks down on a large scale.

"Local algal blooms are a single warm water adapted species"

I don't know, if they are a single warm water adapted species, maybe they bloom in warm water? WILD GUESS!

"Keep your PH at 7.8 during the day, for a month, see how well your coral does." NO!
The Oceans are not at 7.8. "They" are saying it MAY drop 0.3 to 7.8 someday. I agree; that would be bad.

You brought up your tanks night time PH as a defense of your argument, going back on that now?

Please see post #49. I'm using the links you provided as my "main evidence of uncertainty."

You're not using any evidence, you're using uncertain wording as "evidence".

[dj9264]

I have said from post #10: "It's clear that the warming of '96 caused much of bleaching (of coral) but all this talk of changes to the oceans' pH causing any loss (of coral) is just speculation" i.e., from Wikipedia: "the full ecological consequences of these changes in calcification are still uncertain."

everything else is doing worse No! Same post: "Pacific reefs are making a huge comebacks" I went on to speculate why the Caribbean has not been making comebacks while making the implication that it has little to do with global warming unless you think an increase in hurricane activity is from global warming.

http://www.enn.com/press_releases/2561 Thank you, Mr. Maruyama by helping me with a link which was on point.

I don't need evidence; I don't believe pH is the culprit. Can't prove a negtive. You do; so prove it. Still waiting on your evidence that pH is killing coral in the ocean. Lots of things kill coral at home.

You brought up my tank. I did not mean to imply that my few hundred gallons has any relation to the ocean. In fact, this is just what I'm arguing against. Like the studies that measure decreased calcification with low pH in species tank. How does that relate to the wild? You may believe it has caused death, but where?

Heat is the problem.

"I don't know, if they are a single warm water adapted species, maybe they bloom in warm water? WILD GUESS!"

They have blooms when it is warm. They bloom when it is cold. But that's one or just a few species. El Niño cills it all. Warm water kills algae. No where on earth does a warm water current have any where near the nutrients of cool water.

[SolRo]

I have said from post #10: "It's clear that the warming of '96 caused much of bleaching (of coral) but all this talk of changes to the oceans' pH causing any loss (of coral) is just speculation" i.e., from Wikipedia: "the full ecological consequences of these changes in calcification are still uncertain."

Again, wikipedia isn't fact...you reading "uncertain" on wikipedia doesn't mean jack.

everything else is doing worse No! Same post: "Pacific reefs are making a huge comebacks" I went on to speculate why the Caribbean has not been making comebacks while making the implication that it has little to do with global warming unless you think an increase in hurricane activity is from global warming.

Again, if you read your own wikipedia page that you keep going on about, the actual scientific articles point out that reefs do WORSE in acidic oceans, and the only thing that might do better is free floating algae (and they don't know exactly why, lots of factors go into that one).

Your whole argument is that you dont believe PH is doing anything, and the evidence says that it hurts coral.

I don't need evidence; I don't believe pH is the culprit. Can't prove a negtive. You do; so prove it. Still waiting on your evidence that pH is killing coral in the ocean. Lots of things kill coral at home.

Now you're just ignoring the concrete evidence I gave to you to keep on with your bullheaded viewpoint.

You brought up my tank. I did not mean to imply that my few hundred gallons has any relation to the ocean. In fact, this is just what I'm arguing against. Like the studies that measure decreased calcification with low pH in species tank. How does that relate to the wild? You may believe it has caused death, but where?

What?

And no, your whole "because the test isn't the wild, it's worthless" argument is false, so horribly, horribly false.

Heat is the problem.

"I don't know, if they are a single warm water adapted species, maybe they bloom in warm water? WILD GUESS!"

They have blooms when it is warm. They bloom when it is cold. But that's one or just a few species. El Niño cills it all. Warm water kills algae. No where on earth does a warm water current have any where near the nutrients of cool water.

Ok, now you're just wasting my time...I thought you were paying attention to evidence or the proper examples I was showing you, but you just want to keep on pushing your ignorant ideas because they are yours, and you apperently think that all your ideas must be right...only becuase they are yours

[Technoviking]

Alright this thread really isn't going anywhere. Sorry Solro.

If you guys want to keep argueing, PM each other.