I hate to, but...Zeo or no Zeo

[DaveMorris]

Rather than continuing to hijack Matt's tank build thread, and against my better judgement of starting yet another debate over whether or not someone should use Zeovit...Here goes:

After telling Matt that using the Zeovit system in his new tank will prevent the sandbed from "being all it can be" in regards to the life in it, I was provided this response:

"Your mis-understanding of what haters have posted over on Rc seems to have entered your brain stirred around and has spewed out of the wrong end over onto this board when in all actuality it should have spewed out of the other end. Your harmfull words could possibly be preventing Matt from the best experience keeping corals ever. With all due respect, this information you have read is inacurate in my experience."

I have not based my information on Zeovit from the Haters on RC, I have based it on fellow reefers that I have talked to in person, some with hands on experience with it and some generally smart reef guys. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Zeovit system work to strip nutrients from the water and then replace those nutrients that are specifically needed for coral color and growth? If that is the case, I stand by my statement, based on my own research, that a Zeovit system will have a detrimental effect on the life forms in a deep sandbed. I never said that it would kill the sandbed, only that it will not be able to support the wide array of infauna that a deep sandbed needs to have in order to thrive. The nutrient load needed to keep these organisms alive and well is substantial.

The accusation that I am spewing misinformation is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. I would guess that the misinformation that people say about deep sandbeds turning into a big brick is supposed to be true as well?? I have found in my experience that you can keep a 6" sandbed for 6 years and have it be just as loose as it was when it was put in the tank on day one.

The botttom line for me is that using Zeovit is simply one of many ways out there to keep a successful reef tank. I know people that have had terrible failure with Zeo and people that have tremendous success with it. Because I choose not to use it in no way makes me any less of a reef tank hobbyist than anyone else. It is also tremendously arrogant to say that my information is "harmful" when I know several people that feel that using Zeovit is "harmful" to a reef tank. I guarantee you that Matt can have a beautiful reef tank for years and years without the "benefits" of Zeovit.

OK I opened the door....bring it on.

[GoTakuF1]

Wait, gonna go get my popcorn ready for this one.

Ok, start!

[481824]

I always wonder why Zeo is such a controversial topic? It is a valid form of husbandry and NOT for everyone. True, there are many who have horror stories from using Zeo but there are many and who have great success as well. I see the same success/failures with people who run DSB's as well. Same success/failures with people who run Barebottom. Same success failures with people who run skimmerless, bioballs, fluidized beds etc........ To each his own as long as you know the ins, outs, pros, cons of the methodology you decide to use. If you think you can just dump a bunch of liverock and some SPS colonies in a tank and throw some Zeovit in a reactor and you are guaranteed success without understanding how it works then you are doomed from the start.

Strictly speaking for SPS tanks, are we not trying to do everything we can to reduce phosphate and nitrate to achieve good colors? How many people have you seen that run phosban reactors, refugiums, nitrate reactors etc.......Is running GFO more natural than Zeovit? Dont all methods try to achieve the same goal. As you can see many companies are following suit such Polyp Labs Reefresh, Fauna Marin, Prodibio. Just tired of seeing soooo many on RC and other sites wig out at the mention of the word ZEO. Almost funny, although most dont understand what it is or how it works.........but shoot it down.

[GoTakuF1]

I always wonder why Zeo is such a controversial topic? It is a valid form of husbandry and NOT for everyone. True, there are many who have horror stories from using Zeo but there are many and who have great success as well. I see the same success/failures with people who run DSB's as well. Same success/failures with people who run Barebottom. Same success failures with people who run skimmerless, bioballs, fluidized beds etc........ To each his own as long as you know the ins, outs, pros, cons of the methodology you decide to use. If you think you can just dump a bunch of liverock and some SPS colonies in a tank and throw some Zeovit in a reactor and you are guaranteed success without understanding how it works then you are doomed from the start.

Strictly speaking for SPS tanks, are we not trying to do everything we can to reduce phosphate and nitrate to achieve good colors? How many people have you seen that run phosban reactors, refugiums, nitrate reactors etc.......Is running GFO more natural than Zeovit? Dont all methods try to achieve the same goal. As you can see many companies are following suit such Polyp Labs Reefresh, Fauna Marin, Prodibio. Just tired of seeing soooo many on RC and other sites wig out at the mention of the wor ZEO. Almost funny, although most dont understand what it is or how it works.........

Wow, it's over before it started. Awesome response Chris!

[Fish n' Frags]

LOL, Dave you can hijack my thread all you want. Here's the bottom line as far as i'm concerned with Zeovit. I was going to run it in my current tank about 2 months back when i started asking questions about it here and on zeovit.com. When the time came to start up the task of getting the materials around to do so my tank started going haywire and the last thing i wanted to do was mess up my water chemistry any more than it was.

As it stands now i have a 2-3 inch sandbed of ALL crushed coral and i have life in it but i'm sure its not beneficial in any way. I'm not running zeo either. So, i don't think i have to have either a deep sandbed or run zeo to keep a nice tank. The MAIN reason for me to want a 4 inch sandbed in my new tank is simple, i have a beautiful anemone that i want to keep happy. Since planning for the new tank i've had every intention of running zeo full blown from day 1 of cycling my tank. But i wouldn't have dared said anything on SDReefs due to the stuff i've read in the past about people and there opinions on it. So as far as my tank is concerned I will be running full blown Zeo from the beginning and i will also have a 3-4 inch sandbed made with live oolite from Caribsea. I was unaware until now that i might not be able to have a thriving sandbed due to zeo and that kind of worries me, but i'm still going to try it none the less.

EDIT: By the way, i'm well aware of the whole "anemone and zeovit" thing. I'm not to worried about it.

[GoTakuF1]

But i wouldn't have dared said anything on SDReefs due to the stuff i've read in the past about people and there opinions on it.

You must've not been privy to the Zeo RC meltdown from back in the days. Yeah, SDReefs just got a bunch of opinionated people who don't know what they're talking about. Way to take a cheap shot at the local reef community

[Fish n' Frags]

You must've not been privy to the Zeo RC meltdown from back in the days. Yeah, SDReefs just got a bunch of opinionated people who don't know what they're talking about. Way to take a cheap shot at the local reef community

Exactly what i'm talking about. RC, zeovit.com, have way more members thus have more people that run successful zeovit tanks that can defend the method. Here on SDReefs i know of only 3 or 4 people who run it and that makes for a bashing when all the other members start to comment on a zeo thread here. Don't you notice that everytime someone bashes zeo on SDR that Ryan always comes around and defends it? Well, on the larger forums multiply that by 100 or more and it tends to stop the zeo bashing rather quickly.

[GoTakuF1]

Exactly what i'm talking about. RC, zeovit.com, have way more members thus have more people that run successful zeovit tanks that can defend the method. Here on SDReefs i know of only 3 or 4 people who run it and that makes for a bashing when all the other members start to comment on a zeo thread here. Don't you notice that everytime someone bashes zeo on SDR that Ryan always comes around and defends it? Well, on the larger forums multiply that by 100 or more and it tends to stop the zeo bashing rather quickly.

As with any community, there are a few idiots that come along with it. Most members on here that don't personally use Zeo or DSB or BB or any other method won't bash it for the heck of it. For the most part, we all respect each respective methods for their benefits/pitfalls. I personally was hoping for more of a debate with factual evidence/scientific insights into each method but perhaps we won't get that today.

[Fish n' Frags]

As with any community, there are a few idiots that come along with it.

You tend to do this alot lately in the past few threads i've commented in. Try to make a sly comment that in turn attracts negative attacks on me. (i can pull up all the examples if you like) Then you just get to sit back and enjoy the show you started. Whether your personally trying to attack me lately or not, this kind of comment doesn't make you any better than the "idiots" you are talking about.

[GoTakuF1]

You tend to do this alot lately in the past few threads i've commented in. Try to make a sly comment that in turn attracts negative attacks on me. (i can pull up all the examples if you like) Then you just get to sit back and enjoy the show you started. Whether your personally trying to attack me lately or not, this kind of comment doesn't make you any better than the "idiots" you are talking about.

Well, you haven't been bashing any methods willy-nilly have you? Then it doesn't apply to you. I'm just saying, anyone who looks down on a certain methodology without first hand experience or concrete evidence that it's a poor method would fall into that "idiot" category.

[Fish n' Frags]

Sorry Dave, now i'll stop hijacking your thread.

[DaveMorris]

Let me be perfectly clear: ZEOVIT is a system of reef tank husbandry that is perfectly fine to use and I applaud anyone who has the discipline and wallet to use it the way it was intended to be used. I am sure that they have beautiful tanks and I would be proud to own a frag from a Zeo tank. (I used to think that would be bad, but I learned more and changed my mind.)

Well, I am certainly not interested in bashing Zeovit or especially those that use it. What prompted me to raise this horse from the dead was being accused of "spewing harmful misinformation". I am as passionate as they get about the proper use of a deep sandbed. I will defend their use until somebody can prove to me that they kill corals and fish. What I don't understand is why is it so bad to not like the Zeo system in a tank with a DSB? I have done a lot of reading on it and I don't see any research or proof of claims that is any different from the next method. Can somebody bring up a real debate on the pros and cons of Zeovit versus macro laden refugiums? Both systems will reduce Nitrates and phosphates but where is the proof that Zeo is better?

Perhaps I should have been more clear when I told Matt to not use Zeo due to its effects on the sandbed. It isn't the Zeo product, it is the lack of nutrients that has an effect on sandbed life. The creatures in a sandbed will reproduce based on available nutrients. In a properly set up Zeo system, those nutrients will be extremely scarce.

[Fish n' Frags]

Well Dave, i'm going to do both so we shall soon see. You can do your research straight out of my tank. I honestly have no idea whether your right or wrong, i just want both for two different reasons.

[DaveMorris]

Hey Matt...Hijack away while you still can. I am sure that by mid-day tomorrow this thread will be so full of BS and people will be so ready to kill each other that I'll have to ask that it be closed.

[DaveMorris]

No worries Matt. Ryan already showed that he has life in his sandbed. He just misunderstood my concerns about how complete and functional a DEEP sandbed would be in a Zeo system. I would guess that since you will run Zeo to reduce nutrients, we will never know if your tank is benefitting more from that or the sandbed. It doesn't really matter either because I am sure you will have a great looking tank simply because if you don't your gonna be pretty pissed about spending all of that money. Besides how can it look bad with that anenome??