My recent experience with ICH - solved, no deaths, no water changes.

[borg]

You should visit the fish disease sections in the national forums like r2r or rc. Threads in those forums are full of information that will unfortunately disprove of some of the things youve mentioned on your post (ie kick ich). Sorry for the bearer of bad news, there are only 4 proven methods of eradicating ich (copper, hyposalinity, TTM, and chloroquine phosphate). None of which are reef safe.

As dizzyjay mentioned above, its more than likely that ich is still in your tank.

However, some of the things that youve done/mentioned (good diet, stress free) could help with managing Ich. Its probably a good idea to manage Ich if you wont go fallow.

I personally follow the Ich eradication route. I have to admit, its a PITA, but i think its working for my 225. For the next build, I will go the Paul B/Immune route and give that a try.

If you need help looking for these threads, let me know. I can find them for you.

[aquanicssd]

I did find information regarding Kick Ich - correct, it does not "solve" the Ich or eradicate it (I don't intend to claim that, but can see why that might be perceived), but there seems to be enough evidence that it helps and remains reef-safe. I've also seen things like "We don't really know what's in it", but that's also false - we do know what's in the product. There also isn't a "proof" that it doesn't work - it's just that we've gathered enough knowledge to determine it's not a one-shot, cure-all (by any means whatsoever). I believe that there is enough evidence that it does something. Whether or not that means the company is falsely advertising - i'll leave that to a lawyer (but i agree its pretty shady).

Aside from that, I have visited the above forums and did find quite a bit of information as you have mentioned. It seems there Disease index ends up pointing to the articles I've already linked in previous posts. Although http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html is a new one.

But it's interesting that you mention Paul B - that's essentially where I start and work out of, his book was what got me interested in feeding worms and caring a bit less about QT and cleanliness in the tank. I take a lot of very "common sense" types of precautions, but to a certain degree I'm not as concerned as most people I've come across. If there is something in the steps I took that helped the fish deal with the Ich (and harder for the parasite) during the infection phase and allowed them to build and immunity to the parasite - that's even better news (maybe just to me) than having eradicated Ich.

[aquanicssd]

So I wanted to add this too - was listening at work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw6ZGdLgQCs

I've come to respect the BRS Tv channel and what they bring forth to share, and they just so happen to cover a lot of the anecdotal information as well as provided the "tried and true" solutions. But 13 minutes in he states that "If you spot ich... it's our advice... we do not recommend removing all fish, or even treating individual fish... we'd recommend that you sharpen your focus on water quality and stability, and proper nutrition. Monitoring after this and treating if it gets worse."

And to add to what they say, especially regarding a fishes eating habits - I was able to feed my blue tang about 1 time every hour for 4+ hours, which I think is was contributes to the ability for them to fight through the period of time when they do not eat.

[dizzyjay]

BRS is an important part of the community as are the threads that cover this topic. I think the best way to address ich is hands down not to introduce it by starting off and always using stringent qt techniques. Problem is that it’s tough to have that kind of patience and one slip puts everything at risk. I agree that once it’s in your system, your plan of action changes- Right or wrong, I’ve always equated ich to the common cold; as long as the conditions are solid, a healthy fish should recover or never display visible signs. There are times when drastic action should be taken but overreacting can be more detrimental as your hands in the tank = stress and stress affects the ability for all the tankmates to fend off the parasite. I also agree that appetite is an indicator of how far along the disease has progressed; if the fish is still eating then they have a good chance of recouping. Garlic helps in that it is an irresistible scent that sparks the fish to eat. The main thing to do is fix the point of stress- I’d argue that you did so by lowering the salinity but I know that’s just an opinion. The way it has been explained to me, lower salinity makes it easier for the fish to absorb oxygen, with less energy spent breathing, they can focus on recovering from the cold- imho

[aquanicssd]

Garlic helps in that it is an irresistible scent that sparks the fish to eat. The main thing to do is fix the point of stress- I’d argue that you did so by lowering the salinity but I know that’s just an opinion. The way it has been explained to me, lower salinity makes it easier for the fish to absorb oxygen, with less energy spent breathing, they can focus on recovering from the cold- imho

That's a better view on why to use garlic for sure. I've read/heard too much that garlic could potentially be a bad (long-term) addition to their diet, but it definitely makes sense to use it if it will help a starving fish eat.

Lower Salinity means there is more room for dissolved oxygen to be in the water column. Temperature also affects this. Not sure about absorption rates/effectiveness - but it's basically the topic of osmotic pressure and reducing it to make stress more bearable for the fish.



At this point I've left the airstones in, just to ensure maximum oxygen in the water (since I can't test and the air pump/stone is just sitting there.) Temp is around 79F.

I have not seen much if any spots on the Tang, still very active - I did catch her for the first time allowing some skunk cleaners to have a go. Pretty sure this is legitimately a first for that fish since adding her.

The gramma basslet still seems lethargic, couldn't find her this morning but I have the weekend now to observe.

Everyone else in the tank seems fine.

Recent corals I added aren't doing well, but it's only the recent ones and they all started acting funny around the same time. Hammer coral is closing up a bit and two plating corals seem to be bleaching from the light, so I moved them into shadier areas to see if that fixes it.

[borg]

BRS is an important part of the community as are the threads that cover this topic. I think the best way to address ich is hands down not to introduce it by starting off and always using stringent qt techniques. Problem is that it’s tough to have that kind of patience and one slip puts everything at risk. I agree that once it’s in your system, your plan of action changes- Right or wrong, I’ve always equated ich to the common cold; as long as the conditions are solid, a healthy fish should recover or never display visible signs. There are times when drastic action should be taken but overreacting can be more detrimental as your hands in the tank = stress and stress affects the ability for all the tankmates to fend off the parasite. I also agree that appetite is an indicator of how far along the disease has progressed; if the fish is still eating then they have a good chance of recouping. Garlic helps in that it is an irresistible scent that sparks the fish to eat. The main thing to do is fix the point of stress- I’d argue that you did so by lowering the salinity but I know that’s just an opinion. The way it has been explained to me, lower salinity makes it easier for the fish to absorb oxygen, with less energy spent breathing, they can focus on recovering from the cold- imho

Complete agree with this. I tend not to worry about Ich anymore. While Ich can kill, there are more dangerous parasites, specifically velvet, that can wipe out tanks in days, hence I think its important to QT. Ive seen velvet kill my QT inhabitants rather quickly before I can even try to treat.

However, the Paul B route is very intriguing to me (long read but here is one of the latest threads - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/it...efully.310714/). Not having to worry about the killers (velvet, brook, uronema) since the fish would be immune is something id like to try. Also convenient for SD since it requires using natural seawater.

[borg]

That's a better view on why to use garlic for sure. I've read/heard too much that garlic could potentially be a bad (long-term) addition to their diet, but it definitely makes sense to use it if it will help a starving fish eat.

Lower Salinity means there is more room for dissolved oxygen to be in the water column. Temperature also affects this. Not sure about absorption rates/effectiveness - but it's basically the topic of osmotic pressure and reducing it to make stress more bearable for the fish.



At this point I've left the airstones in, just to ensure maximum oxygen in the water (since I can't test and the air pump/stone is just sitting there.) Temp is around 79F.

I have not seen much if any spots on the Tang, still very active - I did catch her for the first time allowing some skunk cleaners to have a go. Pretty sure this is legitimately a first for that fish since adding her.

The gramma basslet still seems lethargic, couldn't find her this morning but I have the weekend now to observe.

Everyone else in the tank seems fine.

Recent corals I added aren't doing well, but it's only the recent ones and they all started acting funny around the same time. Hammer coral is closing up a bit and two plating corals seem to be bleaching from the light, so I moved them into shadier areas to see if that fixes it.

Im sure you likely read about this already, but white spots are not the only symptom for Ich. In case you havent, you should look for flashing, heavy breathing/scratching (since ich could be in the gills), etc.

[aquanicssd]

Yeah!! ^^ good thread, I jumped in a little bit on that one.

Took awhile to catch up. It always seems like a difficult topic to discuss with some.

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[aquanicssd]

Im sure you likely read about this already, but white spots are not the only symptom for Ich. In case you havent, you should look for flashing, heavy breathing/scratching (since ich could be in the gills), etc.

Yes, have been looking for those. Definitely not prevalent with the tang. There was SOME scratching when it started but that stopped as well.

Really seems like the basslet is the last and only fish acting strangely.

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[aquanicssd]

So I wanted to write an update in regards to everything I've done, so that maybe someone else will put in the necessary time and effort wuicker than I did.

In the last two weeks, a Juvenile emperor/Gramma basslet, and clown fish - have fallen due to the stress/Ich/velvet combo. A purple Firefish died, but I'm family certain that was due to him always hiding and never getting food, even spot feeding didn't help that guy.

While I still believe some of the strategies I had previously mentioned "assisted" - just like all the (research-based) information that's out there it is still incredibly dangerous if not dealt with seriously.

I've seen or Blue Tang still getting white spots, but definitely never in large amounts. Always 5 spots tops, never lethargic. Essentially the same for the rest of the fish.

However the weaker fish that clearly could not continuously deal with ick, ended up dying. Quarantine tanks are being set up, and I'm going to follow through with the 80+ day fallow period to try to wipe this out.

It's definitely been a roller coaster and series of rough days watching things go from good to bad every other day. I would not recommend ONLY sticking with the things I initially mentioned. I will continue to update this thread with progress.


I wonder what people's thoughts on developing "immunity" to Ich is. I've read in some papers that fish exposed to weakened/small quantities of Ich, then bathed or quarantined exhbited signs of a resistance to Ich (immunity meaning a tolerance/immune response - not 'permanant invincibility').

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