My recent experience with ICH - solved, no deaths, no water changes.

[aquanicssd]

Edit: UPDATE. MISLEADING TITLE. READ THROUGH POSTS OR READ THE END FIRST!


So I figured I post this just to give out my experience, what I found, what I did, and hopefully help anyone who hasn't yet experienced it yet - or bring old ideas into light. This wasn't an experiment, so nothing is conclusive regarding the solution(s) and their effectiveness... but existing science/experiments were used to to help alleviate the problem.

My Setup and Typical Regime
180Gallon Display, ~20G sump, algae filtration, filter floss at the time, protein skimmer and carbon. Total Tank turnover was probably ~3x/hour.

I have a wide variety of fish and corals within the tank, so treatment was fairly narrow when options were considered.

I feed, by priority:

• Live Blackworms - Everyday
• Frozen Mysis - Everyday
• Frozen Spirulina/Brine - Every few days
• Feeder algaes - 3x week
• Selcon soaked dry pellets - ~2x a week
• Fish-Oil soaked dry pellets - ~2x a week
• Marine Snow (Two Little fishies)
• Homebrewed Phyto Plankton
• Established copepod culture within the tank

The Journey

First and foremost - I caught this issue WITHIN AN HOUR. During a 3-4 hour period of time while I was at home, I was monitoring the tank. After leaving the tank post-feeding (about 2 hours), my newly introduced Blue Tang had developed MANY white spots - no one else was apparently affected. I scrambled through forums, books, and websites to refresh my memory of what Ich does, how to combat it, and what to expect.

I tried to catch it for quarantine - this would not be successful without breaking down half the tank, removing all the rocks... etc. So I stopped trying to catch her because the stress caused by this would have been even more traumatic and possibly make things worse.

Immediate changes I made.

• Added salt to maintain a 1.028 (Most sites will tell you to drop salinity to 1.010, I don't think this is wrong, I just didn't do it)
• Increased Temperature to 86F (From ~78 this took about 5 hours to do)
• Threw 3 airstones in the sump/tank
• Fed a LOT. Worms, mysis, algae, spirulina/brine

What I noticed:
No one had a problem eating, everyone else seemed healthy, tank was more or less fine.

After 12-24 hours, the Ich fell off - came back within 12-24 hours after that.

Increased temperature to 88, starting using Kick Ich (I didn't want to, but couldn't help myself watching the fish suffer.) Removed the carbon and protein skimmer (per Kick Ich's instruction)

Around the second treatment of Kick Ich (day 5-6?), the Tang was NOT doing well. Obviously breathing hard, covered in even more Ich. A Gramma Basslet had some on her forehead, a juvenile emperor had 2-3 spots. Otherwise, fish were healthy.

Throughout the treatment I fed multiple times a day, especially when the tang was willing to eat. I believe this helped a LOT during the days where she would not eat a single bite.

Towards the end of the treatment the Tang ended up looking like she was going to die. Hid between a rock and the sand bed and wouldn't move for almost the full day. Next morning, no one had spots, everyone was eating, minor occurrences of weird behavior - but now that I'm about two weeks past it, I'm pretty confident that if the Ich is still in the tank, everyone in the tank is now immune.

Notes about specific parts:
If I did perform a water change during this time, it was no more than 10 gallons in total (no where near enough to remove the Ich from the tank).

A full Kick Ich treatment (rated for 160 gallon) paired with a 100 gallon rated Rally treatment was used. I put the Rally on a drip that lasted the course of a day (Not really the instructions but that was kind of a weird idea I had)

Slowly brought the temperature back down to 78 over the course of a few days. Salinity is still around 1.027* (See Edit 1). Put in new carbon, currently refraining from the protein skimmer in favor of the refugium method, still experimenting here.


Closing Thoughts
Looking at the amount of posts and information on this topic, my guess at failed Ich treatments might lie in the following situations.

• High Stress environment caused by catching fish, quarantining (Imagine going from a 3 story home into a 400 sqft apartment while you're suffering the worst cold in your life)
• Low Oxygen - Ich kills when the gills are infested. Provided maximum oxygen saturation is essential (Higher temps make O2 saturation harder as well as salinity)
• Improper Nutrition - expect the fish to get so sick they can't eat, stuff them food whenever possible
• Stress and Temp changes from water changes. I see a lot of 50% water change regimes - and if the water is not brought to temperatures exceeding 85F, this will remove the temperature treatment option for too long, helping the Ich grow even stronger.

I think the heat treatment and Kick Ich is a great way to attack Ich. Everything I've read promotes a multi-pronged attack and due to it's virulence I now see why. Keeping the fish healthy is by far the highest priority when considering saving their lives - it nitrates go up, or other problems arise, they can be dealt with later, Ich spreads and attacks FAST, and even through multi-pronged attacks it will stay around for a long time.

My Recommendations for Ich Preparedness.

• Have a heater that can handle high temperatures for your tank. For my 200G of water, I needed 2x 300w, 2x 100w aqueon heaters to comfortably control the tanks temperature at 86F+
• Have Kick Ich or similar solutions on hand
• Quarantine is not a requirement, and if you catch it late, it's already in the tank. Quarantine only allows for copper-based treatments and the tradeoff for stress may not be of any profit

Let me know what your thoughts are or if you think I left anything out or should explain anything else.

Edit 1: There was actually a drop in salinity after the whole process. ~Down to 1.021. Speculation leads me to believe that the rise in temp, fall in salinity, and constant aeration allowed for a less stressful environment for the fish as temp stayed elevated.

[dizzyjay]

Thanks for sharing- interesting notes! Is it possible that the 1.028 salinity is what stressed your new tang? It seems saltier than average and tangs are especially susceptible to ich during stress. Also id agree that your tank still has ich... it ain’t going away unless you go without fish (farrow) for 72+ days. Don’t worry most tanks do have ich; fish are able to shake it off until they are stressed. My tank has ich, I’ve been able to keep things at bay for a long time due in part to (opinion) low flow thru a lg in-line UV sterilizer.

[LotsaFishies]

Very interesting.

Good write-up / documentation.

The high water temp you described makes me cautious. I have had several clients tanks over the last few years (specifically one a month ago) where the chiller stopped working and/or a heater malfunctioned and caused the water temp to increase to 87-88*. All other water conditions within normal parameters the high temp caused a massive Ich outbreak within a day on fish that had been stable for months with new new additions. Also caused cloudy eye issues. Lost multiple fish.

[aquanicssd]

Thanks for sharing- interesting notes! Is it possible that the 1.028 salinity is what stressed your new tang? It seems saltier than average and tangs are especially susceptible to ich during stress. Also id agree that your tank still has ich... it ain’t going away unless you go without fish (farrow) for 72+ days. Don’t worry most tanks do have ich; fish are able to shake it off until they are stressed. My tank has ich, I’ve been able to keep things at bay for a long time due in part to (opinion) low flow thru a lg in-line UV sterilizer.

In regards to the tang, I'm quite confident that salinity was not a factor. The fish had been delivered to the store the day prior (looking very stressed and not eating). Within 4 hours of acclimation to my tank, he was swimming and eating. Roughly a week had passed before the Ich appeared (I actually think the Ich came from the worms, but that's a very difficult theory to prove now)

Not worried about the Ich, I actually am glad it's in the tank and that the fish are building immunity. New fish will definitely undergo a different acclimation process, allowing them to only be exposed to small amounts of tank water at a time so that they too can develop the immunity.


I've read quite a bit on the UV's - they can certainly help. Alongside a good diatom filter as well. The also help with Oxygen by reversing the Redox cycle.

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[aquanicssd]

Very interesting.

Good write-up / documentation.

The high water temp you described makes me cautious. I have had several clients tanks over the last few years (specifically one a month ago) where the chiller stopped working and/or a heater malfunctioned and caused the water temp to increase to 87-88*. All other water conditions within normal parameters the high temp caused a massive Ich outbreak within a day on fish that had been stable for months with new new additions. Also caused cloudy eye issues. Lost multiple fish.

(speculating here) if the rise in water temps was not met with a massive amount of air/water exhange, this could easily cause stress and have the fish succumb to Ich.

I have a lot of flow on the top of the tank (6x2x2) exposed to the air, opened a window for the majority of the day, had 4+ stones running total, protein skimmer, and kept the refuge lights on for 36 hours at a time.

I FORGOT TO MAKE NOTE OF THIS. I had tested the salinity towards the tail end to find the SG at 1.021. I believe this was mainly the splashing from the air pumps plus a bit extra water replacement. Unfortunately I don't have the data that shows how rapidly and when the drop started occurring (I need to automate that asap).

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[aquanicssd]

Although you probably had an ORP installed?

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[aquanicssd]

So in retrospect - it may be that the increased temperatures (to combat the Ich cycle), paired with a steady decline in salinity to reduce osmotic pressure, would keep fish stress free and slowly allow for increased oxygen saturation as time goes on.

I really need a logger for this tank so i can actually point to day-to-day changes....

[dizzyjay]

Glad you got it under control! interesting to hear about diatom filters... have one in my arsenal I’ve been too intimidated by to use to confirm your post, was the salinity @ 1.021 when the visible signs of ich were gone?

[aquanicssd]

... diatom filters... have one in my arsenal I’ve been too intimidated...

I've certainly read a lot of odd stories about them. Something something Vortec? Vortex? The way I heard it, it's possible to get a unit that has bad/old seals. Best to deconstruct, inspect and then test before use. I don't use one (yet), but that's my guess. Next on my list is Triton method and Automating certain functions.

to confirm your post, was the salinity @ 1.021 when the visible signs of ich were gone?

Technically, yes. Although I checked salinity maybe a few days after the signs were gone. I typically only test about once a week or if I do changes. While it probably dropped halfway during the process, it dropped further after a massive change to the return pump (now 10x turnover).

I did find this in regards to Salinity and Ich http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum.../t-271906.html - I think the major suggestion here is that you can force Osmotic Shock on the Ich, before the shock effects the fish as much.

Copper works by process of Redox, essentially ripping O2 from the cell wall. If you can simulate that using osmotic shock, you can kill the parasite before the fish suffer any real harm. Seems like the trick is fine-tuning a process to a given tank size/setup?

[aquanicssd]

Also id agree that your tank still has ich... it ain’t going away unless you go without fish (farrow) for 72+ days.

Where does this information come from? My current understanding is that Ich won't last 48 hours without a fish to feed off of - and if the Ich is being caught in the fishes slime or the fish is resisting the Ich, it can't really feed? I have heard about Ich going "dormant", but what phase of Ich can remain dormant and for how long?


Edit: I've only read of people saying anything more than 7 days on forums, but haven't found a single article talking about long-term dormancy (out side of "low temperature environments). See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4867990/ and http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

However the second link does mention "slow developing" tomonts - so maybe the residual Ich infections are caused by not continuing a heat treatment and/or other methods? The warmer the water, the fast the tomonts will attempt to go through their lifecycle and therefore die off quicker.

[aquanicssd]

Another odd note is that most articles I've read talk about the "feeding off of the fish stage" taking a minimum 3 days. Where I was seeing the cycle happen once or maybe even twice in a single day. (Higher temps forcing quicker cycles?)

[dizzyjay]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164 (Where I got 72dy fishless). “Because of the prolonged life cycle of Cryptocaryon, affected systems should be treated for a minimum of 3–6 weeks (Noga 1996; C. Innis, pers. comm., T. Clauss, pers. comm.). As described above, in some reports, theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation, so some situations may require longer treatment time periods”

[Reefer88]

Another odd note is that most articles I've read talk about the "feeding off of the fish stage" taking a minimum 3 days. Where I was seeing the cycle happen once or maybe even twice in a single day. (Higher temps forcing quicker cycles?)

I’m guessing since all the parasites are at different stages at any given time, and the life cycle stages may vary in length amongst individuals, chances are that tomonts and trophonts are always present together. Unless they have some sort of synchronized lifecycle...


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[aquanicssd]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164 (Where I got 72dy fishless). “Because of the prolonged life cycle of Cryptocaryon, affected systems should be treated for a minimum of 3–6 weeks (Noga 1996; C. Innis, pers. comm., T. Clauss, pers. comm.). As described above, in some reports, theronts were not released until 72 days after initial tomont formation, so some situations may require longer treatment time periods”

Dang!

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[aquanicssd]

I’m guessing since all the parasites are at different stages at any given time, and the life cycle stages may vary in length amongst individuals, chances are that tomonts and trophonts are always present together. Unless they have some sort of synchronized lifecycle...


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Well no, that makes sense. Combined with information like "slow developing" strains and conditions that makes a lot of sense.

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