water electrically charged?

[mojoreason]

okay ... it's been a while since any sort of electrically charged ions particles or whatever they are called have presented themselves to confuse me.

seriously - - here's the deal ... i've been working cleaning out the garage the past couple of days and my right hand is all cut up. so - - i'm feeding the tank this morning and dip in my cup to get some water out.

no problem ... left hand in the tank moving something around ... no problems still ... then i dip the food-filled cup back into the tank with my right hand and feel a little zap.

it's about the force of a 9v charge to your tongue - - but it only happens on my right hand where my thumb is cut. so, i think that it's just the salt water stinging my finger and fill the cup again and jam my thumb into the water. a light sting.

back into the tank -- zap.

***? :confused:

the things in the water that are plugged in:

heater & skimmer in the sump
powerjet in the tank

nothing else is in the tank and these are all meant to be there. anyone have any ideas??

[jthornley]

What do you have everything plugged into? If you have them in a power-strip, what type?

[BrookR1]

I had a similar problem.

Unplug everything and then see if you still get the zap. If you don't get a zap, then plug everything back in and unplug each item in your tank one by one and give yourself the "zap" test. You'll eventually find the problem.

[mojoreason]

Figured I'd have to do that ... am going to check the heater - - as I recall, and knowing history repeats itself, I had a cracked glass tip on an old heater that shocked the !@%# out of me in my freshwater Cichlid tank many moons ago.

Thanks . . . if that's not it, I'll do the self-zap test . . . thank God it's only the volt zap of a niner.

[pk-sd]

Everyone should be using grounding probe along with GFI outlet. Just imagine what your fish and corals are going thru.

Its only $12 at AW.

http://www.marinedepot.com/IMD/150/TA1111.jpg

[farrington300]

Where is the best place to install the ground probe. Sump, display, near the return pump etc. thanks i think i will have to pick one of those up as i have run into that problem as well.

[colindoug3]

It looks like there are 2 plastic dummy prongs, and the third metal prong to ground. Where does that metal ring go?

[REEFWAVE]

i get that stinging sensation as well when i have cuts on my hand and i have found that it only happens right at contact with the water and if i leave it in for a few seconds the stinging goes away. you deffinatly want to be sure so by all means check it out, but it sounds like you could just be feeling the oh so nice salt sting.

[BrookR1]

There's a chance of being electrocuted when using a grounding probe. Please do some thorough research before deciding on one. I can't remember where I read it (wetwebmedia?), but they are bad news.

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by BrookR1
There's a chance of being electrocuted when using a grounding probe. Please do some thorough research before deciding on one. I can't remember where I read it (wetwebmedia?), but they are bad news.

That just wrong. Six years of electrical engineering school (BS and MS). Never heard grounding causes electrocution(when used properly.

Use grounding probe along with GFI. Your GFI circuit will trip as soon as there is current present in your tank.

As far as the location is concerned. You can place is anywhere as long as you circuit is complete. If its in a sump, it will protect you as long as there is water flow. Best place is where you have your heater and PH (common culprits).

[treylane]

Probably just salt water + cut if your animals are looking fine. I have that happen to me all the time... constantly getting little cuts on my hands, and it definitely feels like an electric jolt when the cuts hit the water.

[pk-sd]

http://www.utahreefs.com/SeaStar/wmasSeaStarJan02.pdf

A salt-water aquarium is an especially dangerous thing with electricity. Because salt water is such an excellent conductor, and because we tend to have electrical devices such as powerheads and heaters submerged in the water, we run a much higher risk than is typical with home wiring. Over time, the power cords may wear out, get eaten, become brittle, or just crack, exposing the aquarium water to the wires beneath. Once the aquarium water contacts a wire, the highly-conductive salt water becomes an extension of the wire itself with voltage potential rising and falling 60 times per second. If there is any connection to common (or to ground), current will start to flow through the tank water, including your coral and fish. Trust me, they don’t like this! If the current is small enough, you may not notice it at first. Leaky heaters and powerheads tend to start with very small current leaks, which gradually get bigger, until one day, when you stick your hands into the water -- ZZZZAAP!

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by colindoug3
It looks like there are 2 plastic dummy prongs, and the third metal prong to ground. Where does that metal ring go?

Metal ring is just optional if you want to wire it directly to your house ground (green wire on your outlet). I will double check that tonight. Its been a while since I installed them on my tanks.

[swissfish]

Originally posted by pk-sd
That just wrong. Six years of electrical engineering school (BS and MS). Never heard grounding causes electrocution(when used properly.

Use grounding probe along with GFI. Your GFI circuit will trip as soon as there is current present in your tank.

As far as the location is concerned. You can place is anywhere as long as you circuit is complete. If its in a sump, it will protect you as long as there is water flow. Best place is where you have your heater and PH (common culprits).


I agree, but if you have a sump i would use 2 ground probes (main tank and sump) since the resistance of the water will alow for some electrical charge in the main while the fround probe is in the sump or vise versa.

If you skip the ground probe, DON'T SKIP THE GFI :D

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by swissfish
I agree, but if you have a sump i would use 2 ground probes (main tank and sump) since the resistance of the water will alow for some electrical charge in the main while the fround probe is in the sump or vise versa.

If you skip the ground probe, DON'T SKIP THE GFI :D


Agree. Contrary to everyones belief, water is a bad conductor (but not saltwater). If I had sump, I would use 2.

[maus42]

What exactly does GFI stand for?

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by maus42
What exactly does GFI stand for?


Ground Fault Interrupter

[BrookR1]

Originally posted by pk-sd
That just wrong. Six years of electrical engineering school (BS and MS). Never heard grounding causes electrocution(when used properly.

Use grounding probe along with GFI. Your GFI circuit will trip as soon as there is current present in your tank.

As far as the location is concerned. You can place is anywhere as long as you circuit is complete. If its in a sump, it will protect you as long as there is water flow. Best place is where you have your heater and PH (common culprits).

It's not wrong. It's right! It's right as the light of day.

GFCIs=good
Grounding probe=bad.
Replacing faulty electrical appliances=best

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/elecmarfaqs.htm



:D

[pk-sd]

ok, just going past my 666 post...:eek:

[mer116]

interesting read BrookR1.

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by BrookR1
It's not wrong. It's right! It's right as the light of day.

GFCIs=good
Grounding probe=bad.
Replacing faulty electrical appliances=best

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/elecmarfaqs.htm



:D

Looking at these articles:

1) Written by reef keepers with the health of fish in mind. Not written with safety of people in mind. Whats more important?

2) Mostly to show relation with using grounding probe and possible Hole in the Head and Lateral Line Erosion disease. I use grounding probes, never had that problems with my Tangs.

3) Its simple laws of Physics. Electrical current will travel thru the least resistive path. You get to decide. Its it going to be you or the grounding probe?

4) Quote from one your links "

Ground probes and GFI outlets should be used in all aquariums, but not for the health of the fish. They are for the fishkeeper's protection. Electrocution is a distinct possibility, and a ground probe along with a GFI outlet could save your life one day, so use them.

5) May I suggest a book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764554336/qid=1119479451/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/002-2976924-0727217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) .....

[BrookR1]

The zinger quote: "I use grounding probes and never had a problem with my tangs."

Of course you won't have problems if you have good equipment. Hey Mr. Master's degree....you're not responding to the theory presented.

Does this guy have a valid point? If not, why? You should easily be able to respond to his point. Don't dig through the marketing literature to find your answer either.


Here's the link inside of the link:

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html

Here's my favorite quote:

"I will then connect one side of the generator to ground and the other side to my aquarium water. What will happen? Current will flow through the aquarium and out the ground probe. Will the GFI detect this and trip? No, because even through its current results from the motor-driven generator's energy, the motor's lines remain balanced.

So now we have a system that can electrocute both the aquarist and the fish even though there is a properly installed GFI and ground probe. Were I to remove the ground probe, there would no longer be a current path affecting the fish (they are now the "birds on a wire"). The aquarist however, is still at risk if he touches the water and a ground."

[pk-sd]

I will check out the link later.

But for now I do not understand "I will then connect one side of the generator to ground and the other side to my aquarium water"

Why would you want to do that? We are talking about electric current leaking from heater or PH. Its not that hard to figure out the direct current path would be if you put your hand in the water.

We are not running an electric experiment here, just using electric common sense. No one is forcing you to buy a $10 probe. It's your life. Please try to explain error in what I have presented here. Not some scenario that might never happen.

[BrookR1]

Beh...I'm tired. More than enough info is out there pro and con to make a haphazard decison.

I think the connecting the generator to water was to simulate a malfunctioning device.

[suver569]

Originally posted by pk-sd


5) May I suggest a book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764554336/qid=1119479451/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/002-2976924-0727217?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) .....

Ahh, Touche!

Hate to take sides, but being an electrician, Pk-sd is right.

Water, grounded directly to a grounded point in your house, will keep your butt alive, hence the reason all lights, speakers, anything remotely electrical in pools and spas, are grounded. Overkill grounded I might add. The last pool we did ran a #2 ground to every single speaker, and light in the pool. (Yes, speakers in the pool...dont ask.. just go to hotel solamar downtown if you dont believe me.)

Ground probes are a good idea IMO. I dont personally use them, as GFI's are enough in my book. I've personally seen my GFI working, as I had a wirenut fall out of place in my fuge, and was just slightly touching the water. Just enough to make contact, and when I put my finger in....Click, GFI tripped.

If you want extra protection, get a probe, especially if you stick your hand in now, and feel a little tickle. Oh, and find out where the faulty equipment is, and junk it.

[Skuzzlebutt]

Side note: Girl at AW (yes, I know they aren't always the perfect source of reliable info, but this seemed plausible) said she doesn't use a probe because there have been studies that say a slight electrical charge can stimulate coral growth. Yes, yes, probably urban legend, but it seems possible that a small electrical 'massage' would stimulate some kinds of corals.

So is it possible that the best solution is to have a GFI only?

[BrookR1]

Two scenarios come to mind then:

1. You have a grounding probe installed in a tank. One of your devices fails, but because of the grounding probe, you'll never know that the device is failing because you won't feel that little tingle unless you happend to cross the current flow of the component to the probe. If the device is way faulty...say it's been bad for a few months (exposed wire), then this could potentially mask a very dangerous situation, right? In the meantime, your fish are acting funny, they get HLLE, they won't swim into a certain area of your tank, etc.

2. With or without a grounding probe, you're still making ground when you place your hand into the water (and in the case of the probe...crossing the current line). When I had a problem with one of my Rio pumps, I could actually feel the diffence in the quality of ground (dry carpet vs. wet carpet; bare feet vs. with shoes; cut on the hand vs. no cut). This allowed me to find the pump that was causing the problem...something a voltage meter wouldn't have picked up if I were using a grounding probe.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by BrookR1
Two scenarios come to mind then:

1. You have a grounding probe installed in a tank. One of your devices fails, but because of the grounding probe, you'll never know that the device is failing because you won't feel that little tingle unless you happend to cross the current flow of the component to the probe. If the device is way faulty...say it's been bad for a few months (exposed wire), then this could potentially mask a very dangerous situation, right? In the meantime, your fish are acting funny, they get HLLE, they won't swim into a certain area of your tank, etc.

2. With or without a grounding probe, you're still making ground when you place your hand into the water (and in the case of the probe...crossing the current line). When I had a problem with one of my Rio pumps, I could actually feel the diffence in the quality of ground (dry carpet vs. wet carpet; bare feet vs. with shoes; cut on the hand vs. no cut). This allowed me to find the pump that was causing the problem...something a voltage meter wouldn't have picked up if I were using a grounding probe.

Okay.. I'm far from being electrician, but in scenario #1, that "tickle" can kill you, and your life would be saved from a grounding probe. As for your fishies, they will tell you if something is wrong, thus allowing you to fix the problem w/o potential risk to your life.

In scenario #2, your ground is far more resistant than the probe, so it won't ground to you.

As per the hypothetical situation that corals me enjoy an electrical massage. . . not worth risking your life for IMO (or your house, in case of fire).

[suver569]

Originally posted by Dakota
Okay.. I'm far from being electrician, but in scenario #1, that "tickle" can kill you, and your life would be saved from a grounding probe. As for your fishies, they will tell you if something is wrong, thus allowing you to fix the problem w/o potential risk to your life.

In scenario #2, your ground is far more resistant than the probe, so it won't ground to you.

As per the hypothetical situation that corals me enjoy an electrical massage. . . not worth risking your life for IMO (or your house, in case of fire).

100% correct. .2 amps can and will kill you. As someone who has been electrocuted, thrown off a ladder, and technically dead for about 10 seconds, dont risk it. Fortunately as far as we're concerned, most of the time you know right away if there is a problem (hence the tingle). But there's always that chance that if something major goes wrong, you'll be the poor ******* that finds out the hard way. Without a GFI or ground probe, you could be a smoldering corpse for your wife to come home to.

Electricity will always take the easiest, or least resistant path to ground. Unfortunately, human skin is a conductor, but foruntately, not a good one. A ground probe will always keep that electricity flowing the right way, back to house panels ground, not through your heart.

[Skuzzlebutt]

So I guess my question at this point would be:

Is a GFI alone, without a grounding probe, enough to keep you and your fish safe (more emphasis on YOU)? Then you could get the possible benefit of an electrical massage for the corals and if anything major happens, the GFI will trip and keep you safe, right?

[BrookR1]

suver is an electrician and he doesn't use a grounding probe, only a GFI, so I would follow his example.

[suver569]

Originally posted by Skuzzlebutt
So I guess my question at this point would be:

Is a GFI alone, without a grounding probe, enough to keep you and your fish safe (more emphasis on YOU)? Then you could get the possible benefit of an electrical massage for the corals and if anything major happens, the GFI will trip and keep you safe, right?

A GFI alone, will keep YOU, and anyone who touches the water, safe. Notice I dont say your tanks inhabitants, because the designers of GFI outlets, dont give a flying fornication about your prized acan, or your super rare angel. They care about the 50 million dollar law suit they would be faced if your kid was electrocuted.

If you want to keep your corals and fish safe, go ahead and pop in a ground probe if it makes you happy. I dont use one, because I'm in my tank daily, and if the GFI trips, I know something is wrong. It's just an extra 12 bucks I'd have to spend, that is un-necessary. If there is a seious problem, where something is completly shorted out, the house's breaker will trip

Under normal circumstances, a GFI wont trip until it detects stray voltage outside the normal current path. In other words, a faulty heater submerged in a sump, wont trip the GFI until you stick your hand in there. It seems strange, but that's how it works. Everything will keep running, until a finger is stuck in the water.

Again, under normal circustances, the water wont be getting any jolt, until you actually stick your hand in the tank. It's technically just an extension of the current path, but has no ground to go to (assuming you do not have a ground probe or GFI). To prove this theory, go outside to your panel, open it up, and stick your finger on one of the bus bars behind the breakers. Oh, make sure the rubber on the soles of your shoes are nice and thick. You touching the copper bus, just makes you an extension of the current path, but as long as your not grounded, your fine. No jolt. (I'm kidding by the way, dont go touch anything in your panel :rolleyes: )

This can also be proved by looking up at the powerlines. Most of the powerlines around your house are 4160 volts. A bird lands on the wire, and can sit there all day long. The bird is actually part of the electricity path now, but with no ground, or no load for the power to go through. It's got hundreds of transformers, houses, and appliances to go through, with a much easier path to ground than the bird, which is 30 feet from any ground.

[pk-sd]

If a device fails and start leaking into the tank and you have no ground present, all that voltage potential has to go thru you when you put your hand in the water.

(A)
Ideal situation (complete circuit)
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->(-) PH---------GFI(-)

(B)
PH leaking (still a complete circuit; GFI does not trip). Your water is humming at 60hz. Not very natural.
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->water----->(-) PH---------GFI(-)

(C)
PH leaking you put your hand in the water (if the current leak is less than 3ma, GFI does not trip; you feel slight tingle or maybe a little iron taste in you mouth)
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->water----->your body---->ground

(D)
PH leaking you put your hand in the water (if the current leak is more than 3ma, GFI trips, probably saved your life)
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->water----->your body---->ground

(E)
PH leaking; Ground probe installed (If the current leak is less than 3ma, GFI does not trip; but your water potential is at 0. No hum 60hz hum in your tank(its going to the ground.
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->water-----(stray current goes to ground)------->(-) PH---------GFI(-)

(F)
PH leaking; Ground probe installed (If the current leak is more than 3ma, GFI does not trips; but you did not have to put your hand in the water to make GFI trip.
GFI (+) ----->(+)PH----->water-----(stray current goes to ground)------->(-) PH---------GFI(-)

So the difference;

GFI alone: you will have to provide the system an external ground (could be you) for in order for it to work.

GFI+Probe: Probe is providing the ground. No more tingling, no more 2-15amps of current going thru your body. No more 60hz hum in your tank. It’s a well grounded system. I have seen torpedoes mis-fire in the hangers due to faulty ground. Grounding is very very necessary for all electrical systems.

BTW: GFI outlets fail from time to time(that is why they have a test button :)). In that case without grounding probe. You are the grounding probe.

Sorry for the long post. If have time I will draw a circuit diagram. Lot more easier to explain and understand.

[suver569]

Originally posted by yolo_062004
What about the theory of an in-line chiller acting as a Ground due to the Titanium heat exchanger having water running thru it?

Is it true that if you are running a chiller, then a grounding probe is redundant?

Hmm, possibly, but I wouldnt want my expensive chiller being the ground probe. I think in that case, where something acts as a ground probe, I would go ahead and take a ground probe, possibly 2 to protect the chiller. If stray voltage goes across the chiller, it could fry it. Bad news.

[BrookR1]

But what if you place your hand in the water between the current that leads from the PH to the ground probe? What if you touch the ground probe?

[pk-sd]

Originally posted by BrookR1
But what if you place your hand in the water between the current that leads from the PH to the ground probe? What if you touch the ground probe?

1) If there is no stray current in the tank. Nothing will happen.

2) If there is stray current. Your system should be off. If everything is connected properly. That means it was working.

[suver569]

hmm, a million what if's. If you have a GFI, it'll trip when you stick your hand in the water. If you dont, the ground probe should take the current to ground before it'll effect you. Again, the ground probe has a better path to ground then you do.

Oh, dont play with your tank barefooted. Wear some good shoes, and that should help alot.