Herbie Experts, please chime in..

[MotoFish]

Well, I set up my first "Herbie style" drain.. Oh my God is it quiet! I tried a Durso first and was very disappointed with the results no matter how much I played with it.. I don't think I will ever do anything other than this unless I come across something better..

Anyways, on to the questions...

Is the "tuneability" if that's a word.. directly proportionate to the size of the overflow?
Does this make sense? For example.. Assuming a 1.5" drain, with a 1.5" gate valve, a 24" tall cube tank and a 12" tall, unrestricted at the top, drain pipe in the overflow.
If the overflow measures 7x7, you have 7x7x12=588 cubic inches of water or roughly 2.5 gallons of water over the top of that drain pipe. (I could go further into the math, but for now let's leave it at that) vs. no overflow at all, take down the walls, leave the drain pipe still there.. Now you would have 24x24x7=4032 cubic inches of water or roughly 17.5 gallons of water over the top of the drain pipe. Will the larger volume of water (more weight) be easier to dial in than the smaller one?
I would assume that it would be...??

Now if that is the case, and you are only pumping 1000 gallons of water, would it not make sense to go to a smaller drain to increase your ease of "tuneability"??

I know I have more questions, just trying to figure it all out.. My system is up and running right now, I can fine tune it to an extent. I can get it to run silent, but I have low flow rate with a large drain. The tinyest turn of that valve causes the water to go one direction or the other.. It is difficult to get it perfect with that large of a valve.. I think with greater volume of overflow, will ease that adjustability issue. Or decrease the drain size should accomplish the same thing.. Yes no? Your thoughts..

[sandiegan]

I really don't know if more water volume or smaller drain pipe would really make it more "tuneable" You could splitting your 1.5" pipe (below the tank) into 2 or 3 3/4" pipes each with their own gate valve. That would up the "tuneability" I think.

But the reason I'm posting is, isn't it 7x7x12=588 vs 24x24x12=6912??

[DaveMorris]

It won't work that way. If your pump stops, you will drain your whole tank down to the top of the Herbie drain pipe. The added water pressure does come into play, but it won't make much difference in the "tunability" of the valve. I would switch out the drain pipe to a smaller one, but make sure that you don't go too small. I hope you have a second, unrestricted drain pipe as well for a backup. It should be just above the level that you want your water in the overflow to be. That is part of what makes an overflow important to have in this situation.

[MotoFish]

I really don't know if more water volume or smaller drain pipe would really make it more "tuneable" You could splitting your 1.5" pipe (below the tank) into 2 or 3 3/4" pipes each with their own gate valve. That would up the "tuneability" I think.

But the reason I'm posting is, isn't it 7x7x12=588 vs 24x24x12=6912??

Oops, my bad.. you are right, it is 6912, and almost double the gallons.. but the point was the increased volume, not so much the exact amount of that increased volume..

But now, you bring up a interesting thought.. Multiple smaller valves should be much easier to fine tune it.. :thinking hard:

[MotoFish]

It won't work that way. If your pump stops, you will drain your whole tank down to the top of the Herbie drain pipe. The added water pressure does come into play, but it won't make much difference in the "tunability" of the valve. I would switch out the drain pipe to a smaller one, but make sure that you don't go too small. I hope you have a second, unrestricted drain pipe as well for a backup. It should be just above the level that you want your water in the overflow to be. That is part of what makes an overflow important to have in this situation.

I realize it would drain the tank, I would never do this, it is just for reference to figure out the dynamics of the situation.

You say the added water pressure does come into play, but won't make much difference.. Is this because of the scale of the situation? Because going to a smaller valve is essentially doing the same thing, your just lowering that scale factor. I think I see where you are going with this... I think at the flow rate I am at with the volume of water over the top of the herbie is not enough to support a 1.5" valve. Obviously for saftey factors, you don't want to really decrease the size of your drain, but at the same time, it seems as if that is exactly what needs to happen in this situation. If I had a 1000 gallon tank with a overflow that supported 30 or 40 gallons of water over the herbie, that 1.5" drain might be sufficient.. The more I keep rambling here, the more I keep thinking that Sandiegan has stumbled onto the correct answer.. I can maintain my safety factor by having multiple valves feeding from that 1.5" drain.. If one becomes clogged, the other 2 or 3 could take up the slack.. and you still might be able to really fine tune the system to work better. Obviously this is not a backup to the secondary drain originally part of the "Herbie Setup".. If that 1.5" drain became clogged, multiple valves below that would not matter.

And I do have a backup to my 1.5" drain.. I did the 3/4" within the 1.5" pipe using the reducer and the T.. Came out sweet.. I should post some pictures. And I built it to be able to change out either the 3/4" or the 1.5" pipes inside the overflow, allowing me to adjust the length of either at will..

[Fink Ployd]

what if the 1.5" pipe gets clogged above the split to the different valves?

[DaveMorris]

I may be wrong, but I do not think that the multiple valve idea will work. One of the things that makes a Herbie difficult is getting the valve adjusted right. I think that multiple valves will make this more difficult, not easier. I would just make the drain pipe smaller and stick with one valve.

[MotoFish]

what if the 1.5" pipe gets clogged above the split to the different valves?

Then it's no different then if it got clogged with only one valve.. either way, your back-up is going to kick in..

[MotoFish]

I may be wrong, but I do not think that the multiple valve idea will work. One of the things that makes a Herbie difficult is getting the valve adjusted right. I think that multiple valves will make this more difficult, not easier. I would just make the drain pipe smaller and stick with one valve.

I agree with you that making a herbie difficult is trying to get the valve adjusted right, that is why I think multiple smaller valves will make it easier to adjust. I also think that the more water volume over the top of your drain will make it easier to adjust..

I have a 100 gallon tank that I am going to experiment with.. I have some really cool ideas going thru my head right now... I'll keep you guys updated.

[Redeye]

reason multiple valves will make it harder, is the first valve will do most of your cutting back, then the second valve would cause back pressure between the two valves, unless you have enough room between the two valves, but then we are talking a seriously long drain line:p
1 quality valve should be all it takes

Durso for the win, no adjusting, if you clog a 1.5 inch drain...you have more problems than floods

[dbrooks]

I have a durso that made enough noise to wake the dead. Then, some genius suggested that I place a foam cube on top of the hole to shut the damn thing up...ahhh, bressed silence (name the movie for extra points).

It's not silent - but a hell of a lot quieter than before.

[JHAI4]

Durso for the win, no adjusting, if you clog a 1.5 inch drain...you have more problems than floods


Herbie for the win!!! Mine tank is on mute 24/7... go buy a Sch80 gate valve and do a regular maintenance on your plumbing bi yearly or so and you'll be fine. I would not recommend multiple valves, Redeye is right about the back pressure etc...

[DaveMorris]

I am very happy with my Stockman style standpipes. They are not silent, but certainly very, very quiet. Simple to make and easy to deal with.

[loose-electron]

I have had a Stockman, a Durso, and finally went to a Herbie system.

When my tank is up and running, you can stand beside it and the only thing you hear is a light humming from the pump motor. Getting the system totally quiet took several redesign attempts before I was happy with it.

Hints:

The Herbie line that gets adjusted, should have its intake low down in the overflow box, and the safety (unrestricted) line should be high up in the overflow box. The distance between the two gives you a bit of freedom in the adjustment point.

Adjust valve needs to be gate valve, not a ball valve - allows for more adjustment in tuning.

As the filter sock gets clogged up in the sump and water rises in the filter sock, it can cause the back pressure on the Herbie line to change and the water level in the overflow box rises to compensate. The big difference in height between the two lines (Herbie and unrestricted) in the overflow box helps to compensate for this.

[JHAI4]

The Herbie line that gets adjusted, should have its intake low down in the overflow box, and the safety (unrestricted) line should be high up in the overflow box. The distance between the two gives you a bit of freedom in the adjustment point.

As the filter sock gets clogged up in the sump and water rises in the filter sock, it can cause the back pressure on the Herbie line to change and the water level in the overflow box rises to compensate. The big difference in height between the two lines (Herbie and unrestricted) in the overflow box helps to compensate for this.

Two points here I think should be mentioned

1) Please ensure that the sump can hold all the water if you put the Herbie at the bottom of the overflow box! I put mine about 6" below the baffles in the overflow box and after two years I have never had an issue. If I had put the Herbie at the bottom of the overflow box I would have had a major issue with holding the water volume in the sump.

2) While I agree with your filter sock comment, you should be changing your filter sock weekly. If you let the water rise and flow over the sock what is the point of having the filter in the first place. I would suggest simply not using the sock if this is the is the practice you will employ. However, the point is correct and agreed with.

[barometer]

LOVE my Herbie. My main is 1.5" and emergency is 1". I've got the main pipe cut about 8" below the emergency pipe which is only 1" below the overflow level. Justin nailed it, just gotta be sure the sump can hold the water volume of the overflow (between the two pipe openings). It took about a day of fine tuning to get my level to sit still, but haven't had to touch it since and it's ULTRA silent. :) While I agree that with the large pipe/valve adjustment is very touchy, once you've got it dialed in (and with regular maintenance), it shouldn't give you any headaches. I think if I redid mine (t'would be easy 'nuff), I might try switching the 1" to be the main and the larger 1.5" to be the emergency, just to see if the 'tune-ability' was any better with a more restricted flow to begin with.

[jrjuiliano]

ahhh, bressed silence (name the movie for extra points).

I'm thinking Remo Williams for some reason. Did I win?

Good conversation. I'm considering doing a Herbie setup and this should be a good resource!

[dbrooks]

I'm thinking Remo Williams for some reason. Did I win?


Well done! You win. Congratulations.

[MotoFish]

I'm thinking Remo Williams for some reason. Did I win?

Good conversation. I'm considering doing a Herbie setup and this should be a good resource!

I just picked up two tanks and am going to do some testing.. I'll post the results up (hopefully w/pics) as I get them..