Poison Dart Frogs..

[Reefer Addict]

I don't know if anyone on this board is into PDF's.. I finished this vivarium last Saturday. Well almost finished. I need to add a misting system and a few more plants.

It will be the future home of 4 'Red Amy's' (Red Amazonicus)...:cool:

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/normal_VivFinishedFront%7E0.jpg

[FishRFrndsNtFud]

cool setup

[maus42]

I've always wanted to setup a vivarium to keep poison dart frogs or red-eye tree frogs. Where'd you get your info on how to setup the system, and where did you get all the plants / substrate / etc?

[Reefer Addict]

I bascically just did a lot of lurking and reading off the Dendroboard.com site. The site is pretty new as forums go. What I noticed was a lot of members did not really do a good job of documenting their setups. I'm guilty of it also. I could have done a better job of taking step by step pictures.

Most of if not all of the stuff pictured was bought online (plants, substrate, driftwood, etc). What was purchased locally was the river rock, eggcrate (for a false bottom), silicone and Great Stuff (Great Stuff is a sticky foam insulator). The silicone, and Great stuff was used to glue the cork panels to the back of the tank and to also give the background a 3D look.

IMO, the building of a viv is a bit tougher than the assembling of a like size reef tank for you reach certain steps where you can not do things due to curing processes. Plus, most objects in a viv are glued down. It's not like live rock where you can move things around to change the look. The only thing that you can pretty much move or replace is the plants. Once it is set up the only option for a major change in look is to totally rip everything out and start over.

On the flip side, maintenance is a breeze. No water changes, etc. The plants basically feed off the frog waste. No need to fertilize here. There is not much to do once the viv stabilizes (temp, humidity, drainage, etc.). Just feed the frogs and enjoy watching them....

[airsoftin]

Wow thats cool, ive always wanted to put something like that together! What is the tipical cost with something that size? BTW looks great!! :)

[Reefer Addict]

Wow thats cool, ive always wanted to put something like that together! What is the tipical cost with something that size? BTW looks great!! :)
I have not added up the cost. Cheap compared to reefing. Think about it....Not including the tank and lights. Driftwood, river rock, eggcrate, cork panels, silicone, Great Stuff, coco bedding, mister (of which you can just hand mist) and plants....

[phishphood]

ok..so how bout the frogs? what's a price on those?

[ricestudios]

how do you keep the glass from fogging up?

[Reefer Addict]

ok..so how bout the frogs? what's a price on those?
There is a wide range in cost.

Here is a professional breeders site. Of course you can get them cheaper or even for free with a trade when you get them from hobbyist. This is just to give you an idea..

http://www.saurian.net/htm/mnu_frogspecies.htm

[Reefer Addict]

how do you keep the glass from fogging up?
Some people use a fan.

I have a slight gap along the edge of the glass cover. I lined the gap with screen door repair mesh. The vent helps in keeping the glass clear...

[lucubrator]

ok..so how bout the frogs? what's a price on those?
PK had some when I was there on Saturday waiting (for an hour) for a certain reefer to show up. They wanted 80-200 for the different species. Very cool looking. How often do they breed, and how hard are the young to raise?

[maus42]

PK had some when I was there on Saturday waiting (for an hour) for a certain reefer to show up. They wanted 80-200 for the different species. Very cool looking. How often do they breed, and how hard are the young to raise?

From what I remember about breeding and rearing PDF's it's really pretty hard. I know I have a book around here that covers the subject, but I can't find it.

[maus42]

Reefer Addict, thanks for the reply. I think I'm going to set one of these up in my office at work, you've reinspired me to put one together. Would you mind PM'ing me the websites and such where you ordered everything? It would be greatly appreciated.

[WanaLeime]

So are the plants live? Thats a cool set up you got there...whats the maintenance like?

[Reefer Addict]

Reefer Addict, thanks for the reply. I think I'm going to set one of these up in my office at work, you've reinspired me to put one together. Would you mind PM'ing me the websites and such where you ordered everything? It would be greatly appreciated.
maus-I'll pm you the sites later tonight.... Keep an eye out for it..

[Reefer Addict]

So are the plants live? Thats a cool set up you got there...whats the maintenance like?
Pretty much just keep it moist (but not soggy) through misting...

[Reefer Addict]

PK had some when I was there on Saturday waiting (for an hour) for a certain reefer to show up. They wanted 80-200 for the different species. Very cool looking. How often do they breed, and how hard are the young to raise?
Actually, quite a few hobbyists are into propagating these frogs. Just like reefing. Capitive bred are less prone to wild parasites, diseases, do better in captivity, etc... Captive breeding also helps drive the cost for future frogs down... The whole supply and demand thing...

[Frag Hag]

Good job, Reefer Addict - it's absolutely gorgeous!

Please post more pics when you get the Red "Amy's'.

[Reefer Addict]

Thanks for the compliment. I ordered some new plants yesterday. I'll post an updated pic once I receive and plant them...

[M_DEZ]

I was in pet kingdom this morning and they had a boat load PDF for sale, different morphs.

[Reefer Addict]

I'm actually surprised that there are not more people interested in PDF's here. Granted this is a reef forum....:cool:

[maus42]

I'm actually surprised that there are not more people interested in PDF's here. Granted this is a reef forum....:cool:

Quite a few reefers that I've met from the board started by keeping herp's before moving to reefs it seems. I bet there's quite a few lurkers that are interested in them or other exotic amphibians but just haven't spoken up.

[Reefer Addict]

Did the pm that I sent last night make any sense? Let me know if you have any other questions...

[kjsreef]

i used to be into this big time, I love these little guys, the raising of fruit flys was easy, but got to be a bit tiring!

You can get good deals on frogs at the twice per year reptile show at the san diego concourse!

[maus42]

Did the pm that I sent last night make any sense? Let me know if you have any other questions...

It made plenty of sense, thank you! Just need to do some reading now on the care of these little guys and what I need to do to setup a proper vivarium for them.

I do have one question though- do PDF's make alot of noise, or are they relatively quiet. Because I'd like to set this up at my office at work, I don't want to drive my co-workers insanse with the constant sound of frogs chirping :P

[Reefer Addict]

An updated picture of the viv...

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/normal_FrontView031006DB.jpg

[gemini]

is there anything in the tank now?

[Reefer Addict]

Not yet. I still need to add a few more plants and a misting system. My 4 Red Amy's (Red D.Amazonicus) will be arriving in about two weeks. I will quarantine them for a few weeks in a smaller container (putting them in a smaller container initially makes it easier for them to find food) in order to settle them down after shipping and to get them eating regularly.

Right now I am fine tuning the viv (temp, humidity, lighting, etc.). I want to make sure that everything is stabilized before adding the PDF's.

[Reefer Addict]

I mounted an old moonlight last night...

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/Moonlight.jpg

[WanaLeime]

Damn Reefer Addict...you're making want to start one...That looks nice!

[Reefer Addict]

Damn Reefer Addict...you're making want to start one...That looks nice!
Thanks! Wait till you see pictures of the Darts.....You will be hooked for sure...!:D

[maus42]

It's official, I'm putting one of these together when the cash flow allows for it. I know I have a lot of reading left to do on those sites you gave me, but I still have a couple quick questins.

Basically, how hard are they to maintain (I want this thing on my desk in my office). And secondly.... are they very loud? Don't want to piss off my neighbors :P

[Reefer Addict]

It's official, I'm putting one of these together when the cash flow allows for it. I know I have a lot of reading left to do on those sites you gave me, but I still have a couple quick questins.

Basically, how hard are they to maintain (I want this thing on my desk in my office). And secondly.... are they very loud? Don't want to piss off my neighbors :P
The maintenance of the viv is pretty simple. You just need to keep the substrate moist. The dart poop/pee is a fertilizer for the plants. Misting it with water washes the frog waste down to the substrate which again feeds the plants.

Concerning 'loud'. It is all relative. These frogs are day dwellers (active during the day). Just as in fish in the reef world, dart behavior will depend on the individual frog(s) that you get. If you do get a 'caller', the sound maybe heard depending on the ambient noise that exist in your work environment. The loudness of the frogs will range depending on what spieces you get...

[maus42]

The maintenance of the viv is pretty simple. You just need to keep the substrate moist. The dart poop/pee is a fertilizer for the plants. Misting it with water washes the frog waste down to the substrate which again feeds the plants.

Concerning 'loud'. It is all relative. These frogs are day dwellers (active during the day). Just as in fish in the reef world, dart behavior will depend on the individual frog(s) that you get. If you do get a 'caller', the sound maybe heard depending on the ambient noise that exist in your work environment. The loudness of the frogs will range depending on what spieces you get...

Guess I'll have to hunt down the quiet ones. I've always wanted red-eye treefrogs too... I wonder how loud they are.

[Reefer Addict]

Here is the finished vivarium as of 4/7/06. The final planting was completed a week or so ago. I'm looking to add the PDF's in approximately two to four weeks...

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/normal_Viv040706.jpg

[pitfish]

I was into herps hardcore about 10 years ago. The only one I have left is a green water dragon that I've had for about 9 years now. Your viv looks real nice...it's inspiring me to do the same thing to a ten gal I have laying around :)

[Reefer Addict]

Look what landed in my private jungle.... (D.amazonicus)

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/FirstFrogPic.jpg

[XxMutedYouthxX]

awe dude! thats rad! shoot I dont need to get addicted to anything else but I might just have to set up a lil viv. Have you added up how much everything cost you yet? do you have any full vivarium shots? id like to see how that lil guy looks interacting with the environment

[FishBulb]

I used to have literally dozens of posion arrow frogs. They were much cheaper than reefs but equally addictive. And since most species can be kept in 10 gallon tanks, there was nothing to stop you from getting more frogs! I really enjoyed keeping frogs and they are just as fascinating to watch as fish. I mostly aqcuired them as tadpoles and raised them. The only thing that really sucked about keeping so many frogs was trying to keep up with the massive fruit fly demand. And this was all about 6 years ago when flys weren't sold at petstores and such.
Good luck with your frogs. i'm sure you'll love em,
Fishbulb

[Reefer Addict]

awe dude! thats rad! shoot I dont need to get addicted to anything else but I might just have to set up a lil viv. Have you added up how much everything cost you yet? do you have any full vivarium shots? id like to see how that lil guy looks interacting with the environment
Scroll up for a full viv shot.

Overall, it is way cheaper to set up a viv. Tank and lights are pretty much the same as in reefing. Bellow are some approximate costs of materials that differ from setting up a reef tank. Keep in mind that the list below is not all encompassing...

$ range of:
Individual Plants/Moss/Ferns:$5-$15

Substrate/Coco fibre:$4 a brick

River rock:$6 a bag

Cork: $10 a panel

PDF's:$35-$150 per frog

[XxMutedYouthxX]

kk thanks for the pricelist... i was talking a full viv pic with the frog in the tank...

[Reefer Addict]

kk thanks for the pricelist... i was talking a full viv pic with the frog in the tank...
That is one of my goals..... to get multiple frogs in one picture. It's pretty darn tough. I had four of them in one frame. Just as I was about to release the shutter all four hopped away!!!!!:mad:

[XxMutedYouthxX]

hahah... i can imagine... guess its the same deal as with fish... I love trying to get my six line to pose, never happens

[Reefer Addict]

Here's another Red Amy...

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/Amy2.jpg

[richie77]

www.blackjungle.com
all pdf needs

[ninhsavestheday]

dang, thats awesome. i want one now :)...

im loosing hope on my tank being the haven for microbubbles and stupid euro-reef overflowing.

[Talkn2themike]

I've been doing tons of research on one for about 6 months now. I'm getting ready to set it up prolly sometime this month. Its nice to know there are others on the boards that have experience with PDFs.

[ninhsavestheday]

whats the smallest NANO PDF tank you can keep?

and can you mix them? like with other species

forexample: PDF with Anoles or PDF with RED EYE Treefrogs?

[richie77]

www.blackjungle.com

[Talkn2themike]

ninhsavestheday
I'm not totally pro at this stuff but I beleive with the thumbnail frogs you can have 1 frog per 5 galls of tank. Correct me if im wrong. Your best bet it to check out www.dendroboard.com

[XxMutedYouthxX]

mike when you set yours up youll have to keep me up to date on what your doin and all that... im interested in seeing one setup... these things look rad! I looked into them about a year ago after I broke down my 80 and was thinking about getting back into snakes and stuff but ya seeing a nice viv like reeferaddicts making me wanna start one again heh

[kjsreef]

If anybody's interested in getting into these I have a setup I would like to sell. It has a false bottom, waterfall pump in driftwood, 2 compact fluorescent bulbs, heating element. I'd like to get $100.00

[Reefer Addict]

I just took this picture of one of my Amy's (D.amazonicus).

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/normal_RedAmy041706.jpg

[XxMutedYouthxX]

the amys are so rad... I think once i setup my viv im gonna get tincs...

[Reefer Addict]

Which specific tincs are you planning to get?

[XxMutedYouthxX]

havnt really made up my mind 100%... not even really 100% sure if im getting tincs but possibly patricia's tinc

[ninhsavestheday]

If anybody's interested in getting into these I have a setup I would like to sell. It has a false bottom, waterfall pump in driftwood, 2 compact fluorescent bulbs, heating element. I'd like to get $100.00

where can i get a tank this size?

[Talkn2themike]

Petsmart has "colum" tanks. They are tall cube tanks. Check em out.

[ninhsavestheday]

thanks KJ, i'll definately check out lllreptile.

does anybody know if i keep one in my room will it make my room smell funny?

[Reefer Addict]

does anybody know if i keep one in my room will it make my room smell funny?
There should be no smell. If there is, it would be like a 'woodsy' (hmmm don't think that is a real word) aroma. No way should it smell bad. If it smells bad, then something is wrong.

[Bens-Reef]

i went to pet kingdom today and the frogs were 129.99 i was like *** for one little frog?? whats up with that i mean they look sweet and all but not worth the money wheres good prices for them?

[swissfish]

i went to pet kingdom today and the frogs were 129.99 i was like *** for one little frog?? whats up with that i mean they look sweet and all but not worth the money wheres good prices for them?

And if you ever get sick of taking care of them, you'll be eating expensive frog legs:eek:

[MrKrispy]

hmmm after all these acro problems and the cost of electricity maybe I should let my Reef tank start winding down...

[Reefer Addict]

i went to pet kingdom today and the frogs were 129.99 i was like *** for one little frog?? whats up with that i mean they look sweet and all but not worth the money wheres good prices for them?
The price range is pretty wide depending on species... I would say between $35-$150. I wonder what species they are selling...

[Bens-Reef]

i am not sure what kind they were they are yellow and blue they are cool but pricey

[XxMutedYouthxX]

ya most of the ones ive seen have been around 50 bucks or so

[Reefer Addict]

Did they look like these?
http://www.saurian.net/images2/Pairsurcob7_400.jpg

[ninhsavestheday]

Reefer Addict, do you have a water feature? I'm thinking about getting the exo-terra and adding a water feature, but then I'm wondering should I do it cus it could get sorta complicated, you know? what do you think?

[ninhsavestheday]

wheres so bay tropical?

[Reefer Addict]

Reefer Addict, do you have a water feature? I'm thinking about getting the exo-terra and adding a water feature, but then I'm wondering should I do it cus it could get sorta complicated, you know? what do you think?
I decided to ditch the water feature right at the last minute due to the fact that I had frogs coming in and did not have time to mess around and fine tune it. So basically it ended up being a faux river/stream. It turned out pretty good even without a visible water feature. The faux river/stream looks wet almost 100% of the time due to the mister system automatically coming on every 3 hours.

I'm probably going to have some type of water feature when I put together my next viv.

[MrKrispy]

the tall bowfront (like DannyBoy's tank at PK) would be a cool setup for PDFs

[jbvdhp]

reefer addict- that's sick! i remember when those things were like 10-20 bucks and my cousin had 10 of em! that was years ago!!! how do you care/feed/clean their living space??? seems tedious, no???

john

good work!

[Reefer Addict]

Very low maintenance. The frog poop and pee fertilizes the plants. You need to keep the temp of the viv in the mid 70's during the day. A drop to 68 degrees at night is okay. High humidity is a must. This can be achieved by misting the viv and having a glass top which limits evaporation. I feed dusted (vitamins and calcium) fruit flies daily. I also seeded the viv with springtails (pod looking insects) before I added the frogs.

People say that culturing the fruit flies is the hardest thing to do in keeping PDF's. It really only takes a few minutes every so many weeks to start the cultures. I usually have 3 going on just in case one or two crashes.

Overall-keeping PDF's is as low maintenance as it gets.

[Reefer Addict]

Just 'chillaxing'....:cool:

http://aquatic-photography.com/gallery/files/7/2/7/Damazonicus2.jpg

[XxMutedYouthxX]

thats a really nice lookin frog dude... did you already get all 4?

[gemini]

wow so how much have you spent onthis so far?

[Reefer Addict]

thats a really nice lookin frog dude... did you already get all 4?
I actually picked up 6 of them...:cool:

[Reefer Addict]

I think I may have at least one pair..... :eek:

Female on the left - Male on the right. Now they just need to make their way down to the honeymoon suite (the white film canister right below them).... :cool:

http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/PairPic1.jpg
http://mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/PairPic2.jpg

[Reefer Addict]

wow so how much have you spent onthis so far?
Not counting the stand, light, tank (I had these already) or frogs.... Approximately $100-$150.

[lucubrator]

Not counting the stand, light, tank (I had these already) or frogs.... Approximately $100-$150.
So.. what's left then? Plants, dirt and mister?

[Reefer Addict]

Pretty much. I also used Greatstuff (it's a foam spray on insulator) to add texture to the background.

[MrKrispy]

how do you keep the heat constant in one of the these vivs?

[Reefer Addict]

I pseudo control the temp via the 4 fans that I have hooked up to a fan speed controller. The temp (so far) has not dipped bellow 68 degrees. It has topped off at about 79 degrees.

[ninhsavestheday]

i'm trying to look for a good media recipe. REEFER ADDICT, what do you use and how do you make it? thanks

[Reefer Addict]

Media-as for culturing fruit flies?

Or media - as in substrate in which you would put the plants in?

[ninhsavestheday]

fruit flies :)

[Reefer Addict]

Right now I'm just using 'ED's Enhanced Super Instant Fruit Fly Media' with some brewers yeast and excelsior.
http://www.edsflymeat.com/media.htm

It's easy to mix, doesn't really smell, no mold (so far), etc. Maybe in the future I'll mix my own.

Make sure you have a few mature (just in case one crashes) cultures before you get any frogs. It takes about two weeks for a culture to start mass producing so plan ahead. I would also reccomend starting a springtail culture to add some food diversity.

[chin_monster]

Most of the media recipes are simply 8 parts instant potatoe flakes, 2 parts powdered sugar, two parts brewers yeast and (sometimes) a bit of mold inhibitor. And a few grains of active yeast sprinkled on top of the the cooled wet mix and sometimes a couple drops of honey.

A bit of vinegar splashed on top of the wet mix is supposed to help control mold if your media doesn't have mold inhibitor in it (it's worked for me so far).

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/index.php -dart frog Q&A

[dhuynh]

Stupid question: Are PDFs really poisonous? If so, are they poisonous to the touch or only if you eat them? =)

VERY cool setup! I might just break down my 40 gals and put up a viv.

[MrKrispy]

yah these things are next on the "what am i gonna do when I am finally fed up with the reef tank" list

[Reefer Addict]

Stupid question: Are PDFs really poisonous? If so, are they poisonous to the touch or only if you eat them? =)

VERY cool setup! I might just break down my 40 gals and put up a viv.
Captive raised PDF's are not toxic. Wild caught darts actually lose their toxicity when they are removed from their natural environment. The loss of toxicity is due to the change in their diet. Though, I still keep my hands away from my mouth, etc. after handling. And of course wash them thoroughly afterwards.

[Reefer Addict]

how do you keep the heat constant in one of the these vivs?
I just realized that I did not post step by step pictures of my temp/ventilation system. Be aware that this system also allows me to adjust the ventilation in order to eliminate the condensation that builds up on the viewing glass due to the high humidity (90%-100%) within the viv.

Here are the basic supplies (plastic strip that came with tank-$0, no see um netting-$3 and fans-$5/per fan).

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/VentSupplies.jpg

Took my dremel and cut holes for fans.

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/VentDremel.jpg

Fine tuned the cuts to match the fans and siliconed the no see um netting. The netting is used to keep fruit flies and frogs from escaping.

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/NoSeeUmNetting.jpg

Here are the fans hooked up to the fan speed controller - $10. The controller allows you to fine tune the speeds of the fan. Blue light = Fast fan speed. Red light = Slow fan speed. Speed is controlled by the four nobs in the front.

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/FanSpeedAdjuster.jpg

Here is the finished top view. The fans are velcro'd to the top of the plastic strip. The two outer fans blow air into the viv while the two inner fans suck air out. BTW-The black tubing/plumbing is the misting system and the white thing siliconed to the top of the glass seen right above the two left fans is a remote temp/humidity sensor.

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/TopVent.jpg

Here is the finished front view.

http://www.mytankpics.com/tanks/albums/userpics/10005/VentFront.jpg

Futuristic looking don't you think?...:cool:

[MrKrispy]

great so all my old school tank stuff I sold I will have to re-buy again hahaha

[ninhsavestheday]

i love your broms! i wish my tank is big enough to fit them. here's mine

http://www.dropshots.com/photos/1362/20060428/022026.jpg
(you can see my frog sitting in the bottom.)